For concerned American citizens, there has been alot of exciting news articles lately about the U.S. Debt Celing.
So, for all you statistics geeks,...here is a selction of data-rich websites concerning the United States Federal Debt.
U.S. Federal Deficits, Presidents, and Congress, Stephen Bloch (http://home.adelphi.edu/sbloch/deficits.html)
History of the U.S. Public Debt, Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_U.S._public_debt)
National Debt by U.S. Presidential Terms, Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_by_U.S._presidential_terms)
Historical Annual Debt Outstanding, U.S. Treasury Department (http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt.htm)
Here is the Federal Reserve's Statistical Release: Flow of Funds Accounts of the United States, June 2011 (http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/Current/z1.pdf)
The estimated population of the United States is 310,957,012, so each citizen's current share of the Federal Debt debt is $46,172.95. (from: U.S. National Debt Clock (http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/))
...I'm sending my $46,172.95 to Hutch for his renovation project, earmarked for Dungeon Enhancements,...as a protest against economic tyranny. :eek
I'm not sure why we even have a ceiling seeing as every time we approach it they just raise it.
The rating agencies should probably downgrade the debt anyway as I don't see it getting paid off, as no one in power wants to take ownership of the problem, and kick it another decade down the road. They need to take control of this, and EVERYONE should feel the pain, I don't see any reason to exclude the greedy baby-boomer generation who voted in these ass-clowns and the policy and promises that are unsustainable.
CLIVE,...yes,...so reasonable,...I think we'd all agree with that,...
What has always amazed me about the United States, is that there really is no reliable long range planning. Being a global superpower, both militarily and economically, you'd think mathematical modeling and analysis of global strategic resources and economic processes would be a highly developed and accurate science. Instead, we get just the opposite, we're overloaded with useless information, and wildly miscalculated projections, and, naturally, the general public has a well-deserved mistrust of government data and forecasts.
If we did have a sound modeling and forecasting capability, most citizens would be aware that military spending is a huge contributor, and, in all likelihood, the primary driver, of our current debt overload. Here is a paper that comes to the same conclusion: Keynesian Economics After All (http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1107/1107.3095v1.pdf). The authors summarize: "In conclusion, we have demonstrated, that the main long-term driving force of the US economy through the entire history of the USA has been massive public investments in the private sector, financed by significant increases in public debt, during times of war."
And, what's more,...even in our democracy, we don't have the option of voting on this critical issue.
Quote from: clive on July 18, 2011, 07:49:32 PM
I'm not sure why we even have a ceiling seeing as every time we approach it they just raise it.
Hi,
According to a radio story today, it was to force attention
to the debt and have it debated. We have been doing this
idiocy since 1917?
Phooey,
Steve N.
:bg
There IS a solution, get rid of the Federal Reserve ! Come back to the Constitution where Americans are back in control of their own money instead of foreign bankers.
The current situation is akin to Gaddafi being in control of French finances, Hitler tightening the purse strings of the UK during WW2 or to more accurately fit the American situation, the interest rates that foreign bankers tried to charge the Union under Abe Lincoln early in the civil war.
Quote from: clive on July 18, 2011, 07:49:32 PM
I don't see any reason to exclude the greedy baby-boomer generation who voted in these ass-clowns and the policy and promises that are unsustainable.
Right, blame it all on us greedy baby boomers. I was agreeing with you up until you made that smartass remark, and coming from someone who hides behind a silly anonymous handle. Its folks like you I'd just love to meet face to face and then see how brave you are in making a statement like that. Though you may live here I'd bet money you where not born in this country. I've been paying my share for over 47 years, how about you mister clive?
Quote...and coming from someone who hides behind a silly anonymous handle.
i think that's his first name :bg
no, really
it's a pretty common name in the UK
Hi Dave,
That figures. It's funny how big a set of balls can grow when one hides their identity. :bg
Quote from: hutch-- on July 19, 2011, 01:42:22 AM
:bg
There IS a solution, get rid of the Federal Reserve ! Come back to the Constitution where Americans are back in control of their own money instead of foreign bankers.
Steve, I'm all for that buddy. :bg
Here's an interesting break down of the US debt. It's the Bush era tax cuts that have done us in, that and them damn wars. I don't think anyone can be blamed for the economic downturn, in my life time its not the first.
(http://www.quickersoft.com/pictures/cbpp-graph.jpg)
You know,...this whole debt ceiling issue is ridiculous. The Republicans are just creating a little drama at the public's expense. Clearly, they don't have any viable solutions to the problem. This is why allowing the rich to control the rest of America is so shortsighted,...They create a circus over something that is easily resolved, with legislation,...and, the underlying structural problems that gave birth to this mess remain the same. American politics has become a wasteland,...a black hole,... :eek
And, Hutch,... :eek
Quote from: HUTCH...There IS a solution, get rid of the Federal Reserve,...
Excellent,...and, VERY funny. I'm beginning to really enjoy Australian humor,...
Quote from: Bill Cravener
Right, blame it all on us greedy baby boomers.
Indeed, a very large group who have promised themselves a whole bunch of entitlements, and have paid in fractions of a dollar on the amounts they will get out. It's particularly aimed at those who have not made preparations for retirement beyond that provided by the state, or have been generally feckless.
You've paid in, I've paid in, but guess what, there isn't a lock-box or a pot-of-gold there, it's all gone right back out paying current recipients. The best you've got is a bunch of IOU's in a box, and a whole bigger box with IOU's to China, et al.
I've got code in MASM32, I'm hardly hiding. It's not as if I'm calling myself "Neo" FFS.
Anyone paying tax benefited from Bush-Cuts, in the same way we all got to keep more of our money with Obama's payroll tax cuts. You've got a bunch of stupid wars. My point is we all need to be paying more in taxes, get rid of "loop holes" where people can interpret the tax laws and move things in their favour, get rid of "tax credits" where you get money back from other tax payers. You need a flatter tax system, with no BS, and no deductions that allow for these loop hole interpretations. If everyone has skin in the game, they'd be a lot more engaged, and less likely to vote themselves more cheese. Obama has a very odd idea about where the Middle-Class ends, and the Rich begin.
Quote from: Bill Cravener
I'd just love to meet face to face and then see how brave you are in making a statement like that.
I'm likely to grind-your-gears with my views, and that's Ok, everyone has their own viewpoint coloured by their differing life experiences, if you have to be menacing to sustain your viewpoint you've already pretty much lost credibility. If you're out Chicago way, I'll buy you a beer.
Perhaps we can just agree that this whole thing is a Ponzi Scheme, the early participants will do pretty good, the rest of us will probably just get screwed. Paying more into the scheme isn't going to fix it's inequities.
You're into it for 47 years, I'm about 20 years behind you.
Quote. . the rest of us will probably just get screwed.
Ain't that a bitch! I'll get mine but this greedy baby boomer could care less about you getting yours. :bg
QuoteYou're into it for 47 years, I'm about 20 years behind you.
Just a kid are ya? :bg
Quote from: clive on July 19, 2011, 05:54:51 PM
I'm likely to grind-your-gears with my views, and that's Ok, everyone has their own viewpoint coloured by their differing life experiences,
Coloured? I was correct, you were not born here were you? As to life experiences, you've got a ways to go to catch up to mine pal. :bg
Quote from: Bill Cravener
Just a kid are ya? :bg
And the kids get to pick your old peoples home for you, old man.
Quote from: Bill Cravener
Coloured? I was correct, you were not born here were you?
Indeed, I've never claimed otherwise, but I've been paying my taxes, and didn't creep across your borders. I'm taxed without representation, so what you bitching about? :bg
I think we've had this conversation before, re health care, and the quality system the UK has, it's not a system I'd wish on anyone. You might mock Sarah Palin and her "death panels", but when some bureaucrat decides you're meds would be better given to someone younger, it won't seem nearly as funny.
Quote. . .I'm taxed without representation,
Welcome to America clive! :bg
QuoteUK health care, . .it's not a system I'd wish on anyone.
Even for those 46+ million Americans who have nothing?
Quote from: Bill Cravener
Even for those 46+ million Americans who have nothing?
They are not physically bared from hospital grounds, right, or have I missed something? You turn up in an emergency room, they have to treat you, Mexicans cross the border everyday to do just that I'm pretty sure they are getting "free" care now.
We can argue about the efficacy of the care, but failure to treat comes with the prospect of being sued. Now, lets contrast that with the system in the UK, where doctors have huge patient lists, can't get you out of the office quick enough, miss basic symptoms, can't order effective diagnostic tests. If you can get to a hospital with a CAT or MRI scanner, it would be amazing. I'm telling you, the UK health care system is not something to lust after. It is the model you'll get if government runs health care. Paying doctors below cost isn't going to help either.
I know the emergency room philosophy is "we can address the problems that will kill you in 30 minutes", but the longer term care and effective medication is the stuff that is rationed in systems like those in the UK. You're going to get the lowest rent care available.
Oh I didn't say anything about free health care but how about affordable health care. I assume your employer picks up most of the cost for your care if not all of it. Me, here in PA we have Bluecross/Blueshield and being self-employed it costs me near $700 a month even though I'm quite healthy except for bouts of arthritis pain. Now you take folks (I personally know many) who just make ends meet even though they work just as hard as I, in fact harder then I, but there is no way they can afford health insurance. It's just not possible. As to Mexicans getting free care, that bird just doesn't sing for me pal. They have nothing to do with the ridiculous cost of health care in this country. The cost here in the US is simply based on greed.
QuoteIf you can get to a hospital with a CAT or MRI scanner, it would be amazing.
Well my friend Edgar who as you know lives in Canada would disagree with you about publicly-funded health care and I'm sure other folks here whose country has publicly-funded health care would disagree as well. So lets face it, you and I will never agree on this subject even though I've been around a lot longer then you and I see how it is, that is to say, healthcare in the US is severely broken controlled by greed and to hell with the health and well-being of its citizens.
It's funny in Canada we have public health care, paid for by the tax payers, and also the lowest per capita debt of any G8 country. Our dollar is worth more than the US dollar, and financial we are in better shape than most of the countries in the world. The problem with health care in the US, is special interest groups and greedy politicians.
I think we can agree the costs are out of control, but the alternatives aren't always as appealing as they look.
Well I'm paying a significant fraction of it. Figure $550 per month, family, BCBS PPO 80/20%, with a $2500 per person deductible, my pocket.
I was contrasting the UK/US, where I do have 1st and 2nd degree familiarity, I didn't go into the Canadian system as I'm not familiar with it. What I can tell you is that if you want higher income taxes, ~15% sales tax, and $10/gallon gas the UK system is for you. Personally the American's I hang out with aren't ready for that, perhaps they should be, as stated earlier in the thread I think the whole taxation system needs to be fixed, and we need to stop spending more than comes in. I'm not sure a "soak the rich" approach is viable either, those are the people who are the most mobile, they'll go somewhere else. Again the politicians don't want to grasp this nettle, it will sting.
One thing that does show up consistently with Government health care is waiting lists for things people in the US might consider standard procedures, no weeks and months of waiting, no travelling vast distances. Canada, and frankly the entire world, benefit greatly from the drugs and equipment developed on the backs of US health consumers.
Not worried about the Mexican's and other indigents receiving "free" care at US hospitals? You should be, your costs include paying for them. They cause hospitals to close when there are no paying customers. In order for your costs to be reduced other people are going to have to pay more, and to some degree providers, insurance, lawyers, being paid less. But again you run into the mobility issue. If you start taking greed/motivation out of the system you're going to be left with the "why bother" problem, people aren't going to develop drugs/equipment they can't commercialize, and they aren't going to spend years in school for the honour of treating you.
It wouldn't surprise me if after turning the health system on it's head you'd still be paying as much each month, it would just be coming out of different pockets. Obama care has already increase my costs and deductible, how's it working for you?
The "evil greedy" companies like GE, that *follow* the tax code and tax avoidance strategies, do create the medical equipment we all use. Again the way to deal with that is to simplify the code, and shrink the IRS. The IRS can then focus on compliance, and most of the collection work is done by companies and banks at the point of service. I don't see a good reason why the bulk of Americans should even need to file a tax return, for most it's a threshold and percentage that's automatically deducted.
If it's any consolation Bill, Michele Bachmann gives me headaches.
It seems to be the case that when the financial sh*t hits the fan, the preferred solution (from the big end of town) is to shaft the little guy to make up the short fall. This is part of the problem in Greece at the moment, financiers, crooks and the like have bled the Greek economy into debt and the little guy is expected to pay for it with wage cuts, job losses and drops in living standard.
The problem for me is i am an old fashioned Lasseiz faire capitalist and that means i do not support the incestual relationship that at times develops between an unaccountable corporate sector and governments that they have bought. There is a dirty old fashioned word for this situation that has spread like a disease in the western countries, its FASCISM which means exactly what a corporate sector in bed with government is. Mussolini did it, Hitler did it and they all have the same irritations in common, removal of citizen rights, attacks on trade unions, structural economic policy that favours the owners of government, destruction of the democratic process ALA Thatchers poll tax.
The unbridled attack on the middle class across the western world is the engie that is destroying the economies of Europe, the US and to a lesser degree the resource rich countries like Canada and OZ. The targetted fi9nal destruction of the middle class leaves a two tiered system, the elite and the serfs. Fortunately the fight back after the Bush era has slowed it down a lot but at the price of the global economic crisis which is itslef a product of big money strangling the money supply.
Different countries have different solutions but for the US it is critical that the US government takes back control of US currency. The way to do it is to do a midnight raid on all branches of the Federal Reserve, arrest them all, freeze their assetts and change the law. Teddy Roosevelt changed the law in 1913 to fund his next election and the US have been paying for it ever since.
Reconstruction of the middle class in terms of both employment and small business is how the US will get back on its feet, become competitive again and provide a safe viable life style for all of those Americans that are doing it tough at the moment.
CLIVE and BILL,
It's interesting reading your discussion,...your perceptions are fairly accurate.
The past couple of weeks I've been reading the book: "Betrayal of Trust: The Collapse of Global Public Health', published, 2000, by Laurie Garrett (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurie_Garrett). It's an incredible collection of medical research, describing what the public health system is like in various nations. I just finished reading the section about the evolution of the health care system in the United States. She starts with the creation of the first Public Health Department in New York City, and describes the initial battles with contagious disease epidemics, imported to the city from immigrants from all over the world. The history is enlightening. Much of the real increase in the cost of health care occurred as a consequence of the creation of Medicare and Medicaid. The United States has actually tried four or five times to create Universal Health Care for all the citizens of the U.S. This has been consistently opposed by the American Medical Association, who has lobbied effectively over the years and defeated all attempts. Meanwhile, public health (which provides immunizations for children, health care for the poor and elderly, and, provides the epidemiology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology) necessary to protect the general public from communicable epidemics like tuberculosis) is being reduced in efficacy because of budgetary limitations. What we have now in the United States is a very complex amalgamation of Health Management Organizations, private Health Care Facilities, large insurance companies, state public health organizations, and a number of Federal Agencies that oversee their various domains. The funding for all that is even more convoluted, and, changes with each administration. Costs for quality care have skyrocketed over the last couple of decades,...and, there is enormous variety in the available quality of health care based on demographic factors such as what community you reside in, and, whether you qualify for existing public programs or HMOs.
What really blew me away, was reading about the almost complete collapse of health care in the Former Soviet Union after its dissolution in 1991, and, the rapid development of organized crime groups that introduced illicit drugs and prostitution on a scale that is unimaginable in Western Nations.
And, the chapter that described outbreaks of Ebola in Zaire, because of extreme poverty, corruption, and, a total lack of infrastructure was shocking. If contagious disease specialists, medical researchers, and, doctors from the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) in the U.S., and Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) in France, and, representatives from major Humanitarian Aid Groups had not intervened, the epidemic would undoubtedly have continued unabated, annihilating the entire population of Central Africa.
Quote from: hutch-- on July 20, 2011, 12:32:02 AM
Reconstruction of the middle class in terms of both employment and small business is how the US will get back on its feet, become competitive again and provide a safe viable life style for all of those Americans that are doing it tough at the moment.
Steve,
I doubt that will come to be in my life time. Regardless of how our health care system or the American way of life is explained it all comes down to one single word GREED! I remember growing up as a kid and early teen when a doctor came to your home carrying his black bag. My own local physician decided to give it up and take early retirement because big corp UPMC has taken over my area of the country. America is badly broken, our corrupt political system and big corp money will see that the middle class and most certainly the poor are exterminated.
Bill,
Funny situation where I live, I have little wrong wth me but I have a local doctor (we call them GPs) who always has a pile of people in his waiting room and has to limit the number of customers while the big (do it all) clinics sit there half empty and usually have young Indian doctors hanging around doing nothing. My GP told me he sends the junkies and gerries to the clinics so he does not have to bother with people who are not serious about their problems.
Quote from: hutch-- on July 20, 2011, 11:45:03 PM
...I have little wrong wth me...
we'll be the judge of that
in fact, we can start a new thread in the soap box to make a list :bg
:bg
Well, that's another matter, having suffered from voluntary senile decay once I made 50, I don't remember ever having made a mistake, confess to being truly perfect and even more modest about it. Its only when the senile decay becomes involuntary that it becomes a problem and that should be another 30 years or so from now notwithstanding major medical breakthroughs. :P
:lol
i am sure there is nothing wrong with you that isn't wrong with me :P
As I've stated many times it all comes down to greed. America is owned and controlled by greedy corporate idiots! Like Russia America needs to fall before it can ever rise again.
"Yearly public and private healthcare spending is $7,538 per person. That's almost two and a half times the average of other advanced nations. Yet the typical American lives 77.9 years – less than the average 79.4 years in other advanced nations. And we have the highest rate of infant mortality of all advanced nations. . . Doctors and hospitals have every incentive to spend on unnecessary tests, drugs, and procedures. . . Estimates of how much would be saved by extending Medicare to cover the entire population range from $58 billion to $400 billion a year."
Why Medicare is the Solution - Not the Problem (http://www.truth-out.org/why-medicare-solution-not-problem/1311516955)
Bill,
I agree with you, I think the Republican's attempts to eliminate Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid is criminal. Too many elderly folks depend on them. They should not even be on the table.
Hi Greg,
Republicans continue to oppose repealing oil and gas subsidies, removing tax loopholes for big corporations, letting the Bush tax cuts expire, and any other form of revenue Democrats have suggested like taxing million and billionaires more. Raising taxes in a weak economy, they argue, is unthinkable even if conservative patriarch Ronald Reagan did just that numerous times.
Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-UT) in a May 5th appearance on MSNBC said (as many other Repukes also have stated), "The place where you've got to get revenues has to come from the middle class," saying the poor needed to understand "that there's a civic duty on the part of every one of us to help this government to, uh, to be better." On the Senate floor July 7, Hatch said the poor "need to share some of the responsibility" for deficit reduction.
Phuking morons!! :tdown
[rant on]
The Republicans goal is to cut benefits for the elderly and to cut back the services that the government provides to we the people. The far right in the House decided to use the debt limit as a hostage to continue their decades long quest to eliminate Social Security and Medicare. The Republican plan is to slash the safety net that's been put in place since the 1930s which will then give politicians more monies to make wars, more tax cuts for the rich and bailouts for the bankers. The Bush tax cuts for the rich appears nowhere in any discussion by them bastard Republicans, despite the fact that eliminating them would go most of the way towards resolving our debt crisis. We are still fighting three wars and the defense budget remains mostly untouchable. Let's face up to the facts, eight years of Bush, the Republican party, and with the help of Osama-bin-laden, have destroyed this once great country. Add to that bunch of morons them g*d damn tea-baggers!!
[/rant off]
Bill,
I don't disagree with anything you said. I'm afraid the tea-baggers and the Republicans are going to crash our economy (what's left of it) in the name of reducing the debt. Which is worse? I say crashing our economy is far worse.
i can see a bright side to all this...
if the US govt defaults, the banks won't lend them any more money
that's a good thing - they should have stopped long ago
if the govt's credit rating goes to shit, it will (for the first time, perhaps) reflect a realistic state of affairs
Oh but it burns my ass Dave, I've been paying into SS since I was 12 years old and had to get a SS card to work for my father. My father died when he was 56 and received not one cent of all that money he paid into SS. My mother died when she was 60 and never got one cent of SS. That's just an example of the millions who have died without receiving any of their SS monies back. Social Securities trust fund is a separate and independent entity and should not be included in this countries national debt deficit. Now I'll be damned if that's going to happen to me. I've been paying in being self-employed 100% of my SS payments for near 48 years unlike those who are employed where their employer pays half (I was employed for 8 years of that time). Like that nut in Norway I'm just liable to lose my mind if I don't get some of my SS monies back before I kick the bucket. Who knows what I might do in two more years when I can start collecting if its not there, I'm certain of one thing, it won't be pretty!
truthfully, i have been hearing for years that the SS money wouldn't be there when i reach 62
i plan this way...
it probably won't be there
if it is, i can be pleasantly surprised
good chance i may be a UK citizen by then, anyways - lol
Quote from: dedndavei can see a bright side to all this...
You sound like one of the tea-baggers.
no tea, here
not that that party actually has any relationship to the Boston Tea Party
they selected that name as a marketing ploy, of course
i always try to find the bright side of everything
it has kept me going through the tougher parts of my life
Steve Martin had a funny joke on his twitter page (what's the past tense of twit ?)
Quote from: STEVE MARTINI have decided to default on my lunch check today.
The FED admited that they are as federal as federal express: http://www.c-spanarchives.org/program/ID/217869
Basically they say that they are not required to comply with the Freedom of Information Act, because they are not a federal agency but a private organization. Thus finally admiting that they are as federal as "Federal Express" :)
My point is, that it makes sense that decisions are made in favor of that is beneficial to banks instead of the general economy or the people. Contrary to what the constitution states, the printing of money is not controlled by congress but by a 12 banks cartel. Add Golman Sachs to the equation, as they have a lot of people in key positions in the USA government. The dollar is not controlled neither by the state, nor by the people of the USA. But by parties whose primary interest is the wellbeing of their respective banks. Is irrelevant the wellbeing of the people or of the state.
Could the state do something about it. Yes, if they had a president with guts ala Andrew Jackson. He faced a similar dilema of a monopolized banking sistem. http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/presidents/andrewjackson
The solution, audit the FED, see how deep the rabit hole goes, and eliminate it. It will be bad at first (as we eliminate the fantasy and face the reality), but at the end we would end with a clean economy and a state that actually represents the people of the USA instead of 12 banks.
Quote from: GregL
You sound like one of the tea-baggers.
The irony is that you'll be the one taking it in the arse.
i am not sure if that's directed at me or Greg, Clive :P
but, i think we should all be prepared for a nice cold enema
Quote from: dedndave
i am not sure if that's directed at me or Greg, Clive
It was directed at those using the term.
Dave, you at least haven't pulled to debate down to juvenile name calling, and menacing. It's no wonder US politics are so toxic.
I think all US tax payers are going to take a pounding. This will be especially so if you get a national sales tax, and European style gas taxes. It's nice to assume someone else should pay more tax, but the reality is that additional costs will just be passed down the chain. The companies will just sit on their cash, and not hire, so long as there is uncertainty. There are plenty of companies looking to move out of IL, or get sweet heart deals to stay. I'm all for removing the bloat and loop-holes in the tax code, and providing a uniform playing field, the government doesn't need to play favorites with the rich, or specific companies.
If the Bush tax cuts are revoked, all tax payers will be paying more, which is pretty much why Obama hasn't done so to date. Now I'm sure you could cherry pick which ones to revoke, but the tax code need significant trimming all around, to remove the rules/opportunities for clever accountants to find loop-holes.
yah - what really needs to be cut is govt spending
we all know that isn't likely, leaving the working man to pick up the tab
no matter what happens, the government isn't going to fix itself - this is what we all hope for
where i may disagree with you, Clive, is that it will hurt all the "little people" around the world - not just US tax payers
Quote from: xanatose on July 28, 2011, 08:35:36 PM
Could the state do something about it. Yes, if they had a president with guts ala Andrew Jackson. He faced a similar dilema of a monopolized banking sistem. http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/presidents/andrewjackson
"Jackson prospered sufficiently to buy slaves" :boohoo:
xanatose is correct here, the Federal Reserve has a long and unhappy history of shafting US taxpayers and manipulating the US economy to suit the interests of foreign bankers. The US constitution actually protects the US but through dirty politics and desperate politicians that protection was illegally bypassed long ago. Another related blunder is allowing the corporate sector to have the same rights as a US citizen, "personhood" of corporations has been seriously abused since the 1880s when it was sneaked in.
The US could go from destitution to prosperity by altering this historical abuse but it will not be easy, Abe got the bullet, another in the 1880s then the Federal Reserve Act was enabled in 1913 finally selling Americans out and betraying the US founding fathers who wrote the constitution. JFK tried to base the US dollar on silver but was assassinated shortly after. LBJ signed the death of the American dollar (not the Federal reserve dollar) on the plane back to Washington.
The US needs to arrest all of the bastards, black op any who are dangerous (send them to Libya for rendition) then fully trash the Federal Reserve so that the US government fully controls its own currency again. The US can still be a truly great country but it must stop these bastards from sucking the life out of it before it fails.
Quote from: dedndave
where i may disagree with you, Clive, is that it will hurt all the "little people" around the world - not just US tax payers
I don't think they like that name.
I'm not sure where I've suggested it won't hurt them. I have suggested that everyone should help fund the country they live in, in some fair and fractional manner.
The US is part of a global economy, one of it's strengths is a large and mostly uniform marketplace. If the US consumer isn't buying stuff, all the people involved in the creation and delivery are in peril. My problem with VAT and Gas taxes is that they impact the poor the hardest, even those without cars will see staggering jumps in food prices. On the other hand, if gas where $10/gallon my families monthly cost would increase by enough to pay both my and Bill's health care premiums. It's quite a tempting option for politicians to take.
Quote from: jj2007
"Jackson prospered sufficiently to buy slaves" :boohoo:
Didn't you Italians stomp all over Europe taking taxes and slaves for the Empire.
You did build us some fine straight roads though.
Ditto to that, the introduction of our own local version of a VAT (GST in OZ) was just a tax increase. We got nothing for it but paid more tax and it exactly hit the poorest people in the country.
In reading the posts in this thread, I had to laugh. I think what's happening here is exactly what's happening with 'the best and the brightest' that we have elected to govern.
Our economic system and all the engineering and industrialization that has coalesced to construct it has got to be too complex to understand and manage effeciently. Even our networked computer systems (which we all worship to a certain degree) are mainly just creating tsunamis of information, most of which is irrelevant. What we really need is accurate analysis. And, while all this is going on,...the momentum of human activities and the bureaucratic bloat of our institutions is increasing,...hurtling us, like an out-of-control Theme Park ride towards the abyss. :eek
Just trying to absorb the statistics concerning, say, the global number of refugees of civil wars,...or, the vast population of people that are either malnourished or starving is mind-boggling. Add to this the documented trends in the emergence of drug-resistant strains of infectious disaeses that were formerly treatable, and, plagues like HIV/AIDS (40 million worldwide),...and, all the ecological devastation (world fisheries depleted by 90%), and, all of it,...it's just amazing that modern societies are still intact.
Quote from: cliveIt was directed at those using the term.
I'd like to call them a lot worse.
Quote from: clive on July 29, 2011, 12:16:57 AM
Quote from: jj2007
"Jackson prospered sufficiently to buy slaves" :boohoo:
Didn't you Italians stomp all over Europe taking taxes and slaves for the Empire.
Yes indeed, just before the Middle Ages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages):
QuoteThe Middle Ages (adjectival form: medieval or mediæval) was a period of European history from the 5th to the 15th century. The period followed the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 476, and preceded the Early Modern Era.
More seriously: Fuel taxes is a tricky story. Europe always had them, the U.S. always rejected them. As a result, Europeans consume half as much fuel, and the average Italian or German or French pays actually
less for fuel than the average U.S. citizen. After half a century of cheap fuel, Americans drive a lot more, with cars that do not have a significant market outside the U.S. because they consume too much.
Now the other half of the coin is that, from the roughly 2,000 US$ that both the U.S. and the EU citizen pay for fuel every year,
- in Europe 75% go as tax revenue into the government's pocket, financing roads and many other useful things,
- in the U.S. nearly 90% goes to the pockets of the Saudis and Señor Chavez.
Choose yourself...
Quote from: clive on July 28, 2011, 10:05:21 PM
Dave, you at least haven't pulled to debate down to juvenile name calling, and menacing. It's no wonder US politics are so toxic.
Oh come off it son, you're the first one to bring this debate down to juvenile status. And I quote: "I don't see any reason to exclude the
greedy baby-boomer generation. . ." That is a blatant insult to me and all those of my generation. You're not even a born citizen of this country so my opinion you haven't earned the right to make that statement fellow. I would suggest that you take a good look in the mirror, it was you that hopped off the turnip truck first pal, not I. So you go ahead and continue to stick that foot in your mouth, I'll be listening.
Jochen.
You make an excellent point. I always wondered about the disparity in gasoline taxation schemes.
For American readers, here is an account of the history of Federal Gasoline Taxes: When Did the Federal Government Begin Collecting the Gas Tax? (http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/gastax.cfm)
And, here, is a Congressional Research Service review of U.S. Energy Taxation Policy: Energy Tax Policy: An Economic Analysis, 2005 (http://ncseonline.org/NLE/CRSreports/05jun/RL30406.pdf)
The above report, while it discusses the major issues, is somewhat unrealistic as concerns long term economic stability. It actually has a section that addresses: Oil Import Dependence. But, the analysis is myopic and superficial. Here is an example:
"The problem of vulnerability to embargoes and price shocks, which relates to dependence on imported oil from the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) and other unstable foreign countries, is distinct from the problem of import dependence, and might be better addressed in a policy of stockpiling oil as is being done with the Strategic Petroleum Reserve"
...That's kinda like me saying I shall stockpile Natural Gas, by not farting,... :eek
Quote from: baltoro on July 29, 2011, 08:40:01 PM
Strategic Petroleum Reserve ...
...That's kinda like me saying I shall stockpile Natural Gas, by not farting,... :eek
You hit the nail on the head :U
Off the cliff we go and we're dragging the rest of the world with us.
(http://www.quickersoft.com/pictures/wrong.jpg)
Cartoonist Kal Walters
you can hardly blame the tea party - lol
try blaming the rich assholes, republicans, democrats, lawyers.....
Oh I most certainly do Dave! I watched the news last night and they interviewed four of the tea-bagger backed representatives. The last part of the interview they were in the house chapel holding each others hands in prayer to their god that the US might be saved. Scary shit man!! These tea bagger folks want to bring god into politics and I didn't sign up for that crap. Canada here I come! Edgar, you listening buddy? :bg
my point was, Bill.....
the tea party is not in control - they are fringe - lol - easily ignored
the ones i listed are in control
you can't blame a party for something when they have noone in office :P
Quote from: DAVE...try blaming the rich assholes, republicans, democrats, lawyers.....
...Ya know, just once, I'd like to blame assembly programmers for all the world's problems,...
But, then,...I'd have a reputation for posting alot of ridiculous and irrational crap,... :eek
well - the tea party is a fairly new thing
the system has been screwed up for at least all my adult years
it was screwed up before, too - just not as bad
anyways - can't blame the new party for problems that have been growing for 50+ years
they are making waves, but they are ripples compared to what the democrats, republicans, etc did before that
The rise of the Tea Party is based on the idea that there are simplistic solutions to well known serious economic problems. Its based on the idea that if you just stop spending then everything will end up OK and everyone will end up with more money in their pocket. What they don't understand is that when an economy crashes it take many years to get it up and going again and that is if it ever gets going again.
Until someone in the US administration is willing to take on the Federal Reserve and bring it under the direct control of the elected US government, the rest is just trimming the problems at the edges instead of hitting it right in the guts where it matters. Just don't hold your breath waiting. :tdown