Microsoft and Apple should be ashamed!

[dedndave]

i watched the clip yesterday - now it's gone
here is the full episode
the clip Bill refered to started at about 8:00 on this one
http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/mon-january-16-2012-jodi-kantor

[rags]

We can also blame the American consumer for not wanting to pay higher prices for American made products.
Because no matter where the products are made, the corporations are going to keep their high profit
margins.

[dedndave]

i think the equalizer there is to raise import tariffs
the big-business men of corporate america don't want that,
because that would reduce their profits when they send our jobs overseas

as for americans buying things at a lower price, that is what free enterprise is about
the way the economy is, you can't blame the consumer
the rich guys that suck the economy dry, then stockpile the money offshore rather than creating jobs stateside, are to blame

we cannot control how little chinese employees are paid, but we can tax the hell out of imports

[rags]

i think the equalizer there is to raise import tariffs

I cant agree with you more Dave.

[hutch--]

Trouble is it comes at a price, everyone else does it back to you, putting up trade barriers. America's enemy is the exchange rate, as long as China can fudge the exchange rate, it can undercut pricing in the US. The solution is to lower the US exchange rate so that imports become a lot more expensive and reign in the US corporate sector that will keep screwing Americans until they have nothing left.

[Farabi]

As long as USA production is double, there is no way USA will fall, but yes China's goods' is destroying the price worldwide. But, I guess it is only for the outdated goods. When it comes to produce a newest tech, it still cost the same with USA.

As long as the food on USA lay low, I dont see there is a chance for riot.

[donkey]

Trouble is it comes at a price, everyone else does it back to you, putting up trade barriers. America's enemy is the exchange rate, as long as China can fudge the exchange rate, it can undercut pricing in the US. The solution is to lower the US exchange rate so that imports become a lot more expensive and reign in the US corporate sector that will keep screwing Americans until they have nothing left.

Nice dream but the Republicans will never let it happen and have not only said so but blocked every attempt to level the playing field. A little known bill that received almost no press coverage and for some bizarre reason has flown under the radar in the US is the Currency Exchange Rate Oversight Reform Act, which passed the senate by a 63-35 margin. Doesn't seem like much until you realize that it was truly supported in a bipartisan way. Of course, it received extensive coverage in the Chinese news, calling it "unfair" and "retaliatory" since it would give the government the power to take action against artificially undervalued currencies. It would have enabled the US government to essentially penalize those countries who rig their currencies within the free trade framework, creating fairer trade and a more level playing ground. Unfortunately John Boehner has consistently refused to allow a vote in the House on the bill that threatens his corporate overlords profitability when sending jobs to China and the other cheaters in the currency system. The funny thing is that the bill before the House had 230 co-sponsors and still never got to a vote, bend over America !

Senate votes 79-19 to move bill punishing China on currency

McCain all but assured his fellow senators that this version would not see the light of day in the Republican-controlled House

[Farabi]

I dont know, but, letting you guys handled the world make me convenient. I guess that is wisdom used for.  :U

[dedndave]

Trouble is it comes at a price, everyone else does it back to you, putting up trade barriers. America's enemy is the exchange rate, as long as China can fudge the exchange rate, it can undercut pricing in the US. The solution is to lower the US exchange rate so that imports become a lot more expensive and reign in the US corporate sector that will keep screwing Americans until they have nothing left.

i disagree
the problem is cheap labor
China is one of the most extreme examples
there is no way for american companies to compete because they are not allowed to treat employees so poorly
not that american employees are treated correctly, but they are treated far better

this leads to american companies moving jobs overseas
they can now compete - and increase their profit margin
they piss on the Chinese people - and the American people, at the same time
all for the sake of the bottom line

as for export tariffs being raised...
American consumers spend far more than consumers in competing countries
if they don't want our products - we will survive much better than they   :P
so long as we are producing most of the products we buy

if we raised import tariffs and used that revenue to reduce the tax burden on the lower and lower-middle class incomes,
it would mean more jobs - and a much stronger economy - a stronger dollar
but that action cannot be implemented alone
we need to restore the laws regarding offshore jobs and moneys
the past decade has seen these laws shift completely toward (and by) corporate big-wigs

[DarkWolf]

You know Bill, if a person was to knowingly create an environment where another committed suicide they could be found guilty of murder. I think its time for corporations to take on some of the responsibilites of personhood and not only the advantages. These corporations should be tried for murder, after all I'll believe a corporation is a person when the state of Texas puts one to death.

Since the victims are all chinese.
Could we charge MS with genocide and take them to court for war crimes ?

[donkey]

Since the victims are all chinese.
Could we charge MS with genocide and take them to court for war crimes ?

I hadn't even considered Microsoft, I was thinking more about Foxconn. Microsoft should be ashamed of their association as you should be if you own any products manufactured there but since they are only a customer like you and I they neither own the factory nor do they dictate working conditions.

[oex]

I hadn't even considered Microsoft, I was thinking more about Foxconn. Microsoft should be ashamed of their association as you should be if you own any products manufactured there but since they are only a customer like you and I they neither own the factory nor do they dictate working conditions.

Microsoft must surely license the production.... Microsoft should check out these aspects as a responsible company or face fines.... You wouldnt hire a known burgler to house sit.... You'd hire someone from a respectable agency who had all their references checked or someone you knew and trusted.... Maybe you would still ask a neighbour to keep an eye on the place and inform the local police you were going away.... If that person commited a crime they would be culpable by law and face prison....

If business truely is a 3rd person entity then it should also have the responsibilities of an 'entity'....

If I employed a casual worker convicted of credit card fraud to do my accounting and they stole my clients money *I* would never trade again.... What makes the higher paid managers and workers at MS any less culpable?

The 'buck' stops *where the money is*.... We should never even have heard the name 'Foxconn'.... Microsoft/Apple should have 'Stepped up to the plate'.... The buck should have stopped with them....

Why is it that the food we eat has a label confirming the quality of the living conditions of the animals and yet we do not treat people with the same respect.... M$ and all businesses should be able to PROVE the quality of their supply chain and the working conditions of their workers....

Maybe then they would face real competition from smaller companies and we'd live in a fairer world!

Is capatalism about who works hardest and does the best job or who cuts corners?

[donkey]

Firt off, Foxconn is NOT Microsoft or Apple, it is an independent contractor in another country governed by the laws of that country. It's neither Microsoft's nor Apple's resposibility to ensure that every company they deal with respect the labour laws in their country. Foxconn is in violation of Chinese labour laws but the government there does nothing. To hold either of them responsible is fine, but you must also hold yourself responsible now that you know about it, stop purchasing any electronics that is manufactured in whole or in part by Foxconn. Sounds easy enough but I suspect that once you start to discover how pervasive the company is you will not be able to do it. I love the "everyone is to blame but me" types who go on about how evil these companies are but continue to purchase their products. Only when the consumer market decides to stop supporting these companies or in this case their customers will they stop their reprehensible practices. If you have a Dell, Microsoft or Apple hardware product in your home you are as complicit as they are in how outside companies treat their workers. Granted that the large companies have more pull than you or I but consider that Foxconn has already threatened to take the knowledge gained from manufacturing for the innovative companies and go into direct competition with them. This happened with Acer, though it no longer manufactures anything, it took other companies knowledge and became one of the largest laptop manufacturers in the world, putting some of its former customers out of business.

For myself, I don't own any hardware manufactured by Foxconn, not because I thought of the workers at the time but merely by co-incidence. However, I will begin to do a bit of research into ethical practices before I buy anything else. I'm not interested in being part of the "I didn't kill him, I just paid for the bullets and the gun..." crowd.

By the way, workers in mines in many countries are exploited and abused, are you sure the metals your "local" manufacturers use is not tainted as well. How about that fork you used to eat supper last night ? This never ends, it belongs in the lap of the Chinese government.

[Rockoon]

Nobody here seems to actually address the real issue, nor are all the relevant numbers given here.

For relevant numbers, Foxconn had (as of 2010) 920000 employees. I did not add a zero there by mistake. Thats nine-hundred-twenty-thousand employees. Only 14 of them (according to Wikipedia) committed suicide in 2010.

The suicide rate in the United States (2008 figures, Wikipedia) is 1 out of every 8474 people.
The suicide rate in China (2010 figures, Wikipedia) is 1 out of every 4498 people.

The Foxconn employee suicide rate in 2010 was 1 out of every 65714 people.

The suicide rate in China is almost twice as bad as the United States, but the suicide rate for a Foxxonn employee is outstandingly awesome, over an order-of-magnitude better than the country as a whole, and nearly an order of magnitude better than the United States.

So how dare the United States sit in judgment of Foxconn on suicide rates, and how dare you people here on these forum not go through the simple steps of research that are demanded of anyone with even the most basic of critical thinking skills. You do not get to be appalled at their suicide rate. You should sit in awe at it.

Our media isnt going to tell you this, because our media isnt interested in informing you. They are interested in swaying public opinion for the greater ends of the conglomerates that own them.

As for what the Foxconn employees get paid, there are billions of people that are jealous. Just because the absolute richest nations on the planet with the highest GDP/Capita pay higher wages means nothing. The GDP/Capita of China is similar to what the United States was 120 years ago, and thats purchasing power and inflation adjusted. Thats One-Hundred-Twenty years ago. If you compare all the other U.S. metrics of 1892 (life expectancy, literacy rates, Human Development Index, etc..) to the same metrics China has today, you will easily conclude that the typical 1892 American worker would probably have instantly jumped at the chance to be a 2012 Chinese worker.

As for their currency manipulations.. that isnt targeted at the United States. Its targeted at countries like India, who would otherwise gladly take over the roll of largest global manufacturer.

[MichaelW]

Our media isnt going to tell you this, because our media isnt interested in informing you. They are interested in swaying public opinion for the greater ends of the conglomerates that own them.

Exactly, the function of the media here has changed drastically from what it has been throughout most of our history, and most people seem to have not noticed this.