:(
http://seattle.cbslocal.com/2012/01/10/hundreds-threaten-suicide-at-microsoft-supplier-plant-in-china/
You know Bill, if a person was to knowingly create an environment where another committed suicide they could be found guilty of murder. I think its time for corporations to take on some of the responsibilites of personhood and not only the advantages. These corporations should be tried for murder, after all I'll believe a corporation is a person when the state of Texas puts one to death.
Kind of strange and sad,China,a country that was a place where the worker was king. a Communist PARADISE,where all were Comrades
and no one exploited the working class.
Just thinking "What money(greed) can do"
quote from the Foxconn spokesman in that article:
Quote"The welfare of our employees is our top priority and we are committed to ensuring that all
employees are treated fairly and that their rights are fully protected. The operational changes that
were the basis for this incident are being carried out in accordance with all relevant laws and regulations"
should run for office - i can tell it's bs without even thinking hard
I dont know why, but most of asians bussiness owner was so cruel, it is different with the western style of bussiness. Western company used a highly accurate information, so they could maintained their brand image as a elegant and great quality. For example, when china device manufacture lied about internet connectivity 8 times faster when they used "Bits" as replacement for "bytes" MS and Intel keep goin with their meassure "bytes". The impact is, I respect more any western product as a great quality. I think youll need my comment above for compliment and the cause of the successfull mark of bussiness.
The most corrupt people are always the richest
Quote from: oex on January 14, 2012, 12:40:26 PM
The most corrupt people are always the richest
Not always true, In my line of work, I've seen my fair share of people scamming the welfare system of the US for over $3000 US/month in tax free money,
PLUS all the other non-taxable benefits like money for food,housing, heating, etc.
Speaking of corruption and thievery the USPS has taken the US taxpayer for $20 billion dollars in the last four years alone. For decades the USPS has been operating like a third world country with the best benefits taxpayers money can buy. The service has a current fiscal shortfall of $5.5 billion, which was due last September. If taxpayers (also known as Congress) don't come up with the funding the shortfall could do what rain, sleet, and snow never could, bring down the U.S. Postal Service.
According to numerous reports labor represents 80 percent of Post Office expenses. Compare that with United Parcel Service labor costs at 53 percent and FedEx at 32 percent and your hair will stand on end. Postal paper carriers receive more generous health benefits than most other U.S. federal employees. This agency has been sucking at the teat of the American taxpayer with too much gusto and yet in March of 2011 the U.S. Postal Service and the American Postal Workers Union reached a contract agreement that preserves jobs and provides a 3.5 percent pay raise for the next three years.
Bill, The USPS has been required by law under the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006,
unlike any other government agency or private corporation for that matter, to pre-fund the future retiree healthcare benefits for
the next 75 years, in a period of 10 years.
This alone Bill, cost the USPS $5.5 billion a year!
Its funny Bill, how we would have broke even at least over that same period, as required by law, without that mandate.
Even so, the USPS OVERPAID an estimated $50+ BILLION into the Civil Servant Retirement System,
BUT Congress REFUSES to return the monies to the USPS. That money would go a long way towards paying off that mandate.
Bill, there are millions more people on the government teat called welfare, than work for the USPS, that receive better benefits than me.
They get FULL healthcare benefits, including vision and dental care which I don't get.
They pay NOTHING for it, including NO DEDUCTIBLES, I pay towards my healthcare and deductibles.
They get their rent paid under Section 8 housing, I pay my mortgage out of my pocket.
They get FOOD STAMPS and SNAP benefits. I must pay for my family's food and stay within a budget when doing so. I cannot afford
the products, including pricey steaks I see them purchasing with their free food money.
They get assistance to pay for the heating and electric bills.
I must completely pay my own utility bills, and so I must watch how warm I keep the house in winter, unlike what I see.
In this state they get free cell phones under the Safelink program with 250 free minutes a month subsidized by the taxpayer.
I must pay for my cell phone and minutes.
How many more trillions of dollars must we spend on these decades old 'Great Society' programs with nothing more to
show for it, than lazy generational dependent deadbeats that contribute NOTHING to society, taxes or otherwise?
Bill, as a businessman yourself, I would like to think that you would like reform the BIGGEST money loser the government has first
and require that these people do something, anything , in order to continue to receive their freebies, so that we as taxpayers
get something in return for our tax dollars.
Do some research rags, I feel sorry for you in the way you feel for those less fortunate then all you over paid paper carriers. The many poor and those few that take advantage of the system is but a very small part of the U.S. governments expense to the taxpayer. Why don't the paper carriers give up some of their pay raises, paid holidays, absurd health care and retirement benefits so that they no longer have to suck off the tits of the taxpayers? If there's one system the U.S. government needs to privatize it's the USPS. I mean what the hell, getting paid over $50 thousand a year plus the best benefits the American taxpayer can buy needs to come to an end and soon. USPS, bunch of thieving bastards!!
i'd be happier to see the other employers raise the standard of living
they should all aspire to provide what the postal service does
use that as a standard :U
Bill I would not call 12%, a small part of the budget.
No tangible results have been produced since those programs inception, except for an increase in dependency on them. Because its easier
to sit home on your arse, than to actually have to work for your money.
I know and understand that todays job market isnt the best, and that some people may need temporary help, but thats all
those programs should be. Not the lifetime freebies that they have become.
I also understand that some people are physically or mentally handicapped and are unable to work, thus they need the help.
I have a hard accepting that all the recipients fall into that category, thus they should be working, doing something in order to earn
their keep. Just because they are poor, doesn't mean they cant work for their pay and benefits.
For the record, in the position that I now hold as a PTF letter carrier, I HAVE NO PAID HOLIDAYS.
And my 'Absurd' retirement pension, consists mainly of Social Security payments and payments from a 401k plan that I pay into.
Not much different from somebody in the private sector.
Wish I as a self-employed person could afford these kinds of taxpayer funded benefits.
USPS EMPLOYEE BENEFITS SUMMARY
Compensation
In addition to highly competitive basic pay rates, most Postal Service employees also receive regular salary increases, overtime pay, night shift differential, and Sunday premium pay. Overtime is paid at one and one-half times the applicable hourly rate for work in excess of 8 hours per day, or 40 hours within a workweek. Night shift differential is paid at a specified dollar rate for all hours worked between 6pm and 6am. Sunday premium is paid at 25 percent for work scheduled on Sunday (paid for by the US taxpayers).
Health Insurance
The Postal Service participates in the Federal Employees Health Benefits (FEHB) Program, which provides excellent coverage and flexibility with most of the cost paid by the Postal Service. There are many plans available, including both traditional insurance coverage and Health Maintenance Organizations (HMOs). Employee premium contributions are not subject to most taxes, making health insurance even more affordable (paid for by the US taxpayers).
Retirement
The Postal Service participates in the federal retirement program, which provides a defined benefit annuity at normal retirement age as well as disability coverage (paid for by the US taxpayer).
Thrift Savings Plan
After a waiting period, career postal employees may contribute to the Thrift Savings Plan (TSP), which is similar to 401(k) retirement savings plans offered by private sector employers. Employees contribute to TSP on a tax-deferred basis, and may receive automatic and matching contributions (up to 5 percent of pay) from the Postal Service (from wages paid for by the taxpayers).
Social Security and Medicare
Newly hired postal employees are covered under Social Security and Medicare (paid for by the US taxpayer).
Life Insurance
The Postal Service offers coverage through the Federal Employees' Group Life Insurance (FEGLI) Program. The cost of basic coverage is fully paid by the Postal Service, with the option to purchase additional coverage through payroll deduction (paid for by the US taxpayer).
Flexible Spending Accounts
Career employees may participate in the Flexible Spending Accounts (FSA) Program after one year of service. Tax-free FSA contributions can be used to cover most out-of-pocket health care and dependent care (day care) expenses (paid for by the US taxpayers).
Leave
The Postal Service offers a leave program to career employees that includes annual (vacation) leave and sick leave. For the first 3 years of service, full-time employees earn 13 days of annual leave per year, increasing to 20 days per year after 3 years of service, and to 26 days per year after 15 years of service. In addition, full- time employees earn 13 days of sick leave per year as insurance against loss of income due to illness or accident (paid for by the US taxpayers).
http://www.postalemployeenetwork.com/usps-benefits-info.htm
Well, paid 10% from your payments is lots cheaper than the poor taking a gun and start a riot and rebel against the government, at least on Indonesia. I prefer to paid tax than beeing robbed.
Bill you know as well as I do that most if not all operating income for the USPS comes from the sales of postage and other postal related items.
You are deliberately misleading people in your remarks that saying everything the USPS employees receive or earn is completely paid for
by the us taxpayer.
It is not. That is a fact. It was before the Postal reorganization act of 1971, not now.
Whats the big deal about being covered by SS and medicare? I pay into it, just like you do as a businessman, and every other person
working in a legit job.
That "defined" benefit is a very small amount of the total of any retirement income I would receive. Most comes from the SS and TSP withdraws.
The FSA is offered by many employers to their employees. Heck, even my wife who works for a very small local company(under 30 employees) has one,
offered by her employer.
Overtime compensation laws have been on the books for years Bill, and they cover every employee, not just USPS employees.
They came into existence to prevent abuse of employees, by the employers who were forcing employees to work long days and weeks,
without due compensation.
My sick leave covers me when I am unable to work due to illness or injury, because I am not covered by any type of short term disability
insurance as an employee, as are some (such as my wife)in the private sector.
And as a final note to this cyclic posting on my behalf, I congratulate you Bill for having the courage to continue to do what you do
as a private businessman, given this economy. I do not know how you continue to operate in such a specialized area of business,
given the limited customer base.
Quote from: rags on January 16, 2012, 02:08:25 PM
I do not know how you continue to operate in such a specialized area of business, given the limited customer base.
What specialized area are you speaking of rags. My talents are many among them are programming be it asm, html, css, javascript and cad-cam-cnc. A trade taught to me by my father upholstery which includes the building of new upholstered furniture, re-upholstering of old furniture such as antiques on up to modern furniture and of course my involvement with Knievel Cycles designing and building motorcycle seats.
As to SS and Medicare unlike you I must pay 100% of it where as someone employed generally pays but half. My health care now costs me $1100 a month, and my life insurance also continues to rise as I get older. I receive no paid holidays or paid leave of any sort period. Hell I could teach a dog to be a paper carrier. What a waste of taxpayer monies! Death to the USPS!
"The USPS has stayed afloat by borrowing $12 billion from the U.S. Treasury. This year it will reach its statutory debt limit. After that, insolvency looms."
http://www.nationalreview.com/agenda/268608/what-does-looming-collapse-us-postal-service-tell-us-reihan-salam
"The federal government will then have to choose between letting the agency default on its massive pension obligations or bailing it out to the tune of more than $50 billion."
http://www.businessinsider.com/things-you-should-know-about-the-us-postal-service-before-it-goes-bankrupt-2011-5?op=1
I was referring to the making of saddles for motorcycles. I was unaware of the upholstery in general aspect business, which by the way are hard to find in this part of the state . i guess around here,
it is far cheaper to just toss the furniture on the garbage truck and to buy new, than to have it redone.
And I am aware of your programming skills.
I do quite well and unlike the USPS I do not have to suck off the taxpayer's tit.
Quote from: Bill Cravener on January 16, 2012, 03:02:04 PMMy health care now costs me $1100 a month, and my life insurance also continues to rise as I get older.
Holy crap Bill, but I guess this horse has been beat to death and sanity lost. Well, private jets and millions paid to buy votes in congress cost money, and they need to steal that somewhere or their profits might suffer. If that happens they may not be able to buy enough votes to keep the people out of the decision process then who knows what might happen some of these poor insurance companies are already only billions away of bankruptcy...
(http://www.healthinsurance.org/_wordpress/wp-content/uploads/blog/2010/11/chart.jpg)
Your monthly cost is nearly 3 times the cost of universal health care up here, add to that my supplementary insurance at $30/month (covers everything including travel/dental/vision/drugs etc..) and my total cost (including what my taxes pay) is around $350 a month.
Hi Edgar, yep the older you get the more they steal. I know its hard to believe but unlike a bigger business where there is a group policy a single self-employed person gets no break. I'm about to the point I can no longer afford paying it. My only other option is to convert to a high deductible around $6000 to $8000 to get them to lower the monthly fee. I've got 4 more years to hang on then I am eligible for Medicare. I can only hope I can survive without a serious illness until then. This country's health care for profit is totally phuked up!!
Bill they could reduce your taxes if they didn't give all the tax breaks to the corporations. Probably afford to give you free health care, and a decent retirement.
I agree they should get rid of subsidies.... lets start at the top with the billionaires first. Increase their taxes like Eisenhower did.
Quote from: NPNW on January 17, 2012, 12:15:07 PM
Bill they could reduce your taxes if they didn't give all the tax breaks to the corporations. Probably afford to give you free health care, and a decent retirement.
I agree they should get rid of subsidies.... lets start at the top with the billionaires first. Increase their taxes like Eisenhower did.
Amen brother!
Watch this video and think about it the next time you buy an electronic product from China. :tdown
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-january-16-2012/fear-factory
However the truth shall not be told to the world. Not even the US allies :lol
(http://www.masm32.com/board/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=18150.0;id=10186)
Quote from: oex on January 18, 2012, 12:38:56 PM
However the truth shall not be told to the world. Not even the US allies :lol
You might be able to watch it from Canada:
The Daily Show - Fear Factory (http://watch.thecomedynetwork.ca/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart/full-episodes/#clip601713)
>You might be able to watch it from Canada
Not from Australia via your link, I see the 15 second ad then "Sorry, there was an error".
The original link just says "Unavailable Video", like oex.
So many videos are like that, it's bloody annoying to sit through an ad (sometimes 1:30) then a slap in the face.
It can only get worse with SOPA :(
Yes with me also advert then an error...
The walled garden mentality has it's merits, I cant deny this.... Certainly it promotes diversity and retains cultural growth....
Welcome the death of originality with the enlightenment of the human race or face complex legislation :lol
I guess its a lie when its called the world-wide-web. :(
Its a great video. Might try searching "Stewart fear factory".
Having been able to watch the video and also having watched that particular episode of The Daily Show (I rarely miss them), I think Foxconn has more of a definition problem than a labour problem. If it could get the government of China to redesignate its workers as Genetically Organized Robotic Technology (GORT) it would solve the problem of them treating "humans" as "robots". That way when the ungrateful bastards actually want a ten minute break after 30 hours their foreman can just "turn them off" with a bullet shaped "switch" through their CPU containment module.
Is it any wonder that American Corporations report record profits? The greed of American capitalism. :tdown
i watched the clip yesterday - now it's gone
here is the full episode
the clip Bill refered to started at about 8:00 on this one
http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/mon-january-16-2012-jodi-kantor
We can also blame the American consumer for not wanting to pay higher prices for American made products.
Because no matter where the products are made, the corporations are going to keep their high profit
margins.
i think the equalizer there is to raise import tariffs
the big-business men of corporate america don't want that,
because that would reduce their profits when they send our jobs overseas
as for americans buying things at a lower price, that is what free enterprise is about
the way the economy is, you can't blame the consumer
the rich guys that suck the economy dry, then stockpile the money offshore rather than creating jobs stateside, are to blame
we cannot control how little chinese employees are paid, but we can tax the hell out of imports
Quote from: dedndave on January 19, 2012, 03:01:53 AM
i think the equalizer there is to raise import tariffs
I cant agree with you more Dave.
Trouble is it comes at a price, everyone else does it back to you, putting up trade barriers. America's enemy is the exchange rate, as long as China can fudge the exchange rate, it can undercut pricing in the US. The solution is to lower the US exchange rate so that imports become a lot more expensive and reign in the US corporate sector that will keep screwing Americans until they have nothing left.
As long as USA production is double, there is no way USA will fall, but yes China's goods' is destroying the price worldwide. But, I guess it is only for the outdated goods. When it comes to produce a newest tech, it still cost the same with USA.
As long as the food on USA lay low, I dont see there is a chance for riot.
Quote from: hutch-- on January 19, 2012, 08:24:10 AM
Trouble is it comes at a price, everyone else does it back to you, putting up trade barriers. America's enemy is the exchange rate, as long as China can fudge the exchange rate, it can undercut pricing in the US. The solution is to lower the US exchange rate so that imports become a lot more expensive and reign in the US corporate sector that will keep screwing Americans until they have nothing left.
Nice dream but the Republicans will never let it happen and have not only said so but blocked every attempt to level the playing field. A little known bill that received almost no press coverage and for some bizarre reason has flown under the radar in the US is the Currency Exchange Rate Oversight Reform Act, which passed the senate by a 63-35 margin. Doesn't seem like much until you realize that it was truly supported in a bipartisan way. Of course, it received extensive coverage in the Chinese news, calling it "unfair" and "retaliatory" since it would give the government the power to take action against artificially undervalued currencies. It would have enabled the US government to essentially penalize those countries who rig their currencies within the free trade framework, creating fairer trade and a more level playing ground. Unfortunately John Boehner has consistently refused to allow a vote in the House on the bill that threatens his corporate overlords profitability when sending jobs to China and the other cheaters in the currency system. The funny thing is that the bill before the House had 230 co-sponsors and still never got to a vote, bend over America !
Senate votes 79-19 to move bill punishing China on currency (http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/185223-china-currency-bill-clears-hurdle)
QuoteMcCain all but assured his fellow senators that this version would not see the light of day in the Republican-controlled House
I dont know, but, letting you guys handled the world make me convenient. I guess that is wisdom used for. :U
Quote from: hutch-- on January 19, 2012, 08:24:10 AM
Trouble is it comes at a price, everyone else does it back to you, putting up trade barriers. America's enemy is the exchange rate, as long as China can fudge the exchange rate, it can undercut pricing in the US. The solution is to lower the US exchange rate so that imports become a lot more expensive and reign in the US corporate sector that will keep screwing Americans until they have nothing left.
i disagree
the problem is cheap labor
China is one of the most extreme examples
there is no way for american companies to compete because they are not allowed to treat employees so poorly
not that american employees are treated correctly, but they are treated far better
this leads to american companies moving jobs overseas
they can now compete - and increase their profit margin
they piss on the Chinese people - and the American people, at the same time
all for the sake of the bottom line
as for export tariffs being raised...
American consumers spend far more than consumers in competing countries
if they don't want our products - we will survive much better than they :P
so long as we are producing most of the products we buy
if we raised import tariffs and used that revenue to reduce the tax burden on the lower and lower-middle class incomes,
it would mean more jobs - and a much stronger economy - a stronger dollar
but that action cannot be implemented alone
we need to restore the laws regarding offshore jobs and moneys
the past decade has seen these laws shift completely toward (and by) corporate big-wigs
Quote from: donkey on January 12, 2012, 10:52:08 AM
You know Bill, if a person was to knowingly create an environment where another committed suicide they could be found guilty of murder. I think its time for corporations to take on some of the responsibilites of personhood and not only the advantages. These corporations should be tried for murder, after all I'll believe a corporation is a person when the state of Texas puts one to death.
Since the victims are all chinese.
Could we charge MS with genocide and take them to court for war crimes ?
Quote from: DarkWolf on January 19, 2012, 06:40:43 PM
Since the victims are all chinese.
Could we charge MS with genocide and take them to court for war crimes ?
I hadn't even considered Microsoft, I was thinking more about Foxconn. Microsoft should be ashamed of their association as you should be if you own any products manufactured there but since they are only a customer like you and I they neither own the factory nor do they dictate working conditions.
Quote from: donkey on January 19, 2012, 08:40:10 PM
I hadn't even considered Microsoft, I was thinking more about Foxconn. Microsoft should be ashamed of their association as you should be if you own any products manufactured there but since they are only a customer like you and I they neither own the factory nor do they dictate working conditions.
Microsoft must surely license the production.... Microsoft should check out these aspects as a responsible company or face fines.... You wouldnt hire a known burgler to house sit.... You'd hire someone from a respectable agency who had all their references checked or someone you knew and trusted.... Maybe you would still ask a neighbour to keep an eye on the place and inform the local police you were going away.... If that person commited a crime they would be culpable by law and face prison....
If business truely is a 3rd person entity then it should also have the responsibilities of an 'entity'....
If I employed a casual worker convicted of credit card fraud to do my accounting and they stole my clients money *I* would never trade again.... What makes the higher paid managers and workers at MS any less culpable?
The 'buck' stops *where the money is*.... We should never even have heard the name 'Foxconn'.... Microsoft/Apple should have 'Stepped up to the plate'.... The buck should have stopped with them....
Why is it that the food we eat has a label confirming the quality of the living conditions of the animals and yet we do not treat people with the same respect.... M$ and all businesses should be able to PROVE the quality of their supply chain and the working conditions of their workers....
Maybe then they would face real competition from smaller companies and we'd live in a fairer world!
Is capatalism about who works hardest and does the best job or who cuts corners?
Firt off, Foxconn is NOT Microsoft or Apple, it is an independent contractor in another country governed by the laws of that country. It's neither Microsoft's nor Apple's resposibility to ensure that every company they deal with respect the labour laws in their country. Foxconn is in violation of Chinese labour laws but the government there does nothing. To hold either of them responsible is fine, but you must also hold yourself responsible now that you know about it, stop purchasing any electronics that is manufactured in whole or in part by Foxconn. Sounds easy enough but I suspect that once you start to discover how pervasive the company is you will not be able to do it. I love the "everyone is to blame but me" types who go on about how evil these companies are but continue to purchase their products. Only when the consumer market decides to stop supporting these companies or in this case their customers will they stop their reprehensible practices. If you have a Dell, Microsoft or Apple hardware product in your home you are as complicit as they are in how outside companies treat their workers. Granted that the large companies have more pull than you or I but consider that Foxconn has already threatened to take the knowledge gained from manufacturing for the innovative companies and go into direct competition with them. This happened with Acer, though it no longer manufactures anything, it took other companies knowledge and became one of the largest laptop manufacturers in the world, putting some of its former customers out of business.
For myself, I don't own any hardware manufactured by Foxconn, not because I thought of the workers at the time but merely by co-incidence. However, I will begin to do a bit of research into ethical practices before I buy anything else. I'm not interested in being part of the "I didn't kill him, I just paid for the bullets and the gun..." crowd.
By the way, workers in mines in many countries are exploited and abused, are you sure the metals your "local" manufacturers use is not tainted as well. How about that fork you used to eat supper last night ? This never ends, it belongs in the lap of the Chinese government.
Nobody here seems to actually address the real issue, nor are all the relevant numbers given here.
For relevant numbers, Foxconn had (as of 2010) 920000 employees. I did not add a zero there by mistake. Thats nine-hundred-twenty-thousand employees. Only 14 of them (according to Wikipedia) committed suicide in 2010.
The suicide rate in the United States (2008 figures, Wikipedia) is 1 out of every 8474 people.
The suicide rate in China (2010 figures, Wikipedia) is 1 out of every 4498 people.
The Foxconn employee suicide rate in 2010 was 1 out of every 65714 people.
The suicide rate in China is almost twice as bad as the United States, but the suicide rate for a Foxxonn employee is outstandingly awesome, over an order-of-magnitude better than the country as a whole, and nearly an order of magnitude better than the United States.
So how dare the United States sit in judgment of Foxconn on suicide rates, and how dare you people here on these forum not go through the simple steps of research that are demanded of anyone with even the most basic of critical thinking skills. You do not get to be appalled at their suicide rate. You should sit in awe at it.
Our media isnt going to tell you this, because our media isnt interested in informing you. They are interested in swaying public opinion for the greater ends of the conglomerates that own them.
As for what the Foxconn employees get paid, there are billions of people that are jealous. Just because the absolute richest nations on the planet with the highest GDP/Capita pay higher wages means nothing. The GDP/Capita of China is similar to what the United States was 120 years ago, and thats purchasing power and inflation adjusted. Thats One-Hundred-Twenty years ago. If you compare all the other U.S. metrics of 1892 (life expectancy, literacy rates, Human Development Index, etc..) to the same metrics China has today, you will easily conclude that the typical 1892 American worker would probably have instantly jumped at the chance to be a 2012 Chinese worker.
As for their currency manipulations.. that isnt targeted at the United States. Its targeted at countries like India, who would otherwise gladly take over the roll of largest global manufacturer.
Quote from: Rockoon on January 22, 2012, 01:53:19 PM
Our media isnt going to tell you this, because our media isnt interested in informing you. They are interested in swaying public opinion for the greater ends of the conglomerates that own them.
Exactly, the function of the media here has changed drastically from what it has been throughout most of our history, and most people seem to have not noticed this.
Quote from: Rockoon on January 22, 2012, 01:53:19 PM
and how dare you people here on these forum not go through the simple steps of research that are demanded of anyone with even the most basic of critical thinking skills.
Nice research Rockoon but I think you missed the point of generalisation.... Your figures dont display 'critical thinking' either because they are also likely based on data biases.... Maybe more unemployed people commit suicide.... Maybe more men commit suicide (especially in China which has a massive gender imbalance).... Maybe there are cultural differences (as you mentioned the psycological impact of massive industrial change in a short time).... There are many many irrelevant factors that make your statistics worthless....
It is the principle of large corporations who make obscene profits not taking responsibility that is the point here....
Generalising these thoughts and statistics into what we should stand up for as human beings.... What we should condemn.... Is no failing....
Considering our actions as consumers is not neccesarily a bad thing....
I know many people with massive computing overlaps, phones, computers, music and ebook readers that are overlapped not because of technical restrictions but because a few profiteering companies divvy up the worlds resources and production patents and write operating systems that dont interact....
No-one personally really needs more than one laptop or tablet these days.... I think there is a distinct lack of intelligence or distain for others in anyone who is overly gadget biased....
I agree with you and Michael that the media is just a vested interest group.... Media is the biggest game in town and no-body really understands it deeply enough to give it any real justification in anything it says.... Thank god for internet forum debate :lol
Quote from: oex on January 22, 2012, 11:25:47 PM
It is the principle of large corporations who make obscene profits not taking responsibility that is the point here....
What obscene profits are those?
https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=foxconn+profits&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&channel=suggest
I realize that you really think that your viewpoint ought to be defensible, and that you are alarmed that someone with actual facts isnt here defending them, but that doesnt give you the moral authority to make things up to defend what is quite obviously a position that you are not equipped to defend.
Has it occurred to you that when you arent equipped to defend a position without making things up, that maybe you shouldn't?
Quote from: Rockoon on January 22, 2012, 01:53:19 PM
Foxconn had (as of 2010) 920000 employees. ... Only 14 of them (according to Wikipedia) committed suicide in 2010.
The suicide rate in China (2010 figures, Wikipedia) is 1 out of every 4498 people.
The Foxconn employee suicide rate in 2010 was 1 out of every 65714 people.
Good point, Rockoon. Reminds me of a Science Fiction novel that I read when I was young (I forgot the name), which said every big project - man on the moon, powerplants, whatever - has a statistical death toll of x fatalities per Billion bucks. Which you better don't show the press when presenting the project :green
Quote from: Rockoon on January 23, 2012, 01:51:54 AM
Quote from: oex on January 22, 2012, 11:25:47 PM
It is the principle of large corporations who make obscene profits not taking responsibility that is the point here....
What obscene profits are those?
https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=foxconn+profits&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&channel=suggest
I realize that you really think that your viewpoint ought to be defensible, and that you are alarmed that someone with actual facts isnt here defending them, but that doesnt give you the moral authority to make things up to defend what is quite obviously a position that you are not equipped to defend.
Has it occurred to you that when you arent equipped to defend a position without making things up, that maybe you shouldn't?
The obscene profits I described were not Foxconns but (as according to the subject of the topic) Microsofts and Apples.... Apple was recently described as having more available cash than the US government or some such (a lot at least) and M$ founder Bill Gates happens to be (or have been) the richest man on the planet with $40-50 billion+.... Maybe if you had read the context of just this topic you would have some context of my comments....
All this shows is a lack of creativity in aloting financial capital not a success.... If the public sector is sitting on piles of excess cash there is uproar....
Futher how do you defend *making up* the context of your 'critical thinking' statistics (at least providing figures with no real weight - evidence to justify your statistics).... Face it Rockoon either you have to quote figures you have no way of backing up or you have to make generalisations on failures from a moral standpoint.... Maybe you have hear the phrase.... "Lies, damned lies and statistics" attributed (again according to the Wiki) to Benjamin Disraeli :lol
Here are some further statistics which will massively sqew your statistics (Once you have any quality data to work from in the first place.... ie genders, age, marital status, homelessness, area of the country lived in (ie rural or urban) etc etc of the target employees)....
http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/country_reports/en/
If you have an ounce of common sense you will realise that a general condemnation is as much sense as you are going to get out of a 10 line forum post :lol
Quote from: oex on January 23, 2012, 10:40:38 AM
The obscene profits I described were not Foxconns but (as according to the subject of the topic) Microsofts and Apples.... Apple was recently described as having more available cash than the US government or some such (a lot at least) and M$ founder Bill Gates happens to be (or have been) the richest man on the planet with $40-50 billion+.... Maybe if you had read the context of just this topic you would have some context of my comments....
OK, I get it, these rich companies should "take responsibility" by not sourcing their materials from a company with an outstanding great suicide rate?
It seems that you have latched onto this idea that these companies did something wrong, and in spite of the fact that I shattered the evidence that these companies were doing something wrong, you still insist that they are doing something wrong.
Yeah... sorry I missed that "context" of you being completely irrational.
Quote from: oex on January 23, 2012, 10:40:38 AM
Futher how do you defend *making up* the context of your 'critical thinking' statistics (at least providing figures with no real weight - evidence to justify your statistics)....
They have no weight because I told you where my source was, rather than linked directly? What are you trying to say? I sourced my numbers.
..and you sit here, without having sourced anything, waiving your hands saying "look at me I am right about Apple and Microsoft being evil for working with Foxconn" .. I showed how Foxconn wasnt evil and you still sit here waiving your hands "look at me I am right about Apple and Microsoft being evil... because the numbers you sourced might be wrong"
Quote from: oex on January 23, 2012, 10:40:38 AM
some further statistics which will massively sqew your statistics (Once you have any quality data to work from in the first place.... ie genders, age, marital status, homelessness, area of the country lived in (ie rural or urban) etc etc of the target employees)....
http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/country_reports/en/
Those statistics do not skew mine. They support mine.
http://www.who.int/mental_health/media/chin.pdf
You waive your hands saying they dont support mine, but are incapable of showing why, but still insist that your theory about Foxconn which so far has no actual supporting evidence from you, is true.
Now let me repeat. I realize that you really think that your viewpoint ought to be defensible, and that you are alarmed that someone with actual facts isnt here defending them, but that doesnt give you the moral authority to make things up to defend what is quite obviously a position that you are not equipped to defend.
Quote from: RockoonAs for what the Foxconn employees get paid, there are billions of people that are jealous. Just because the absolute richest nations on the planet with the highest GDP/Capita pay higher wages means nothing. The GDP/Capita of China is similar to what the United States was 120 years ago, and thats purchasing power and inflation adjusted. Thats One-Hundred-Twenty years ago. If you compare all the other U.S. metrics of 1892 (life expectancy, literacy rates, Human Development Index, etc..) to the same metrics China has today, you will easily conclude that the typical 1892 American worker would probably have instantly jumped at the chance to be a 2012 Chinese worker.
Or for that matter, 1800's England, .. the'll be trouble at 't mill. http://www.nettlesworth.durham.sch.uk/time/victorian/vindust.html
Now what China needs is a revolution, and it's hard to imagine that it won't occur in the near future, perhaps we can export them some trade unions, that will certainly throw a spanner in the works. Again this will likely precipitate a move to a new low wage country and the cycle will continue.
If people want to change the playing field here, then they are going to have to pay higher prices for things. We should also examine the fractional amount that producers of food stuffs (milk, meat, ie farmers) get from your supermarket dollars/pounds.
Quote from: Rockoon on January 23, 2012, 09:18:45 PM
....
Well if I had time in my day to argue deeply into why your general statistics dont fit the specific issue I would.... Simply I took offense that you accused all posters of not using 'critical thinking' when you yourself did not.... Effectively you have said statistically iron is the most common element in the universe ergo this item is made of iron.... You assume general statistics fit specific circumstances by probability and without real facts *which none of us have*.... So many factors are involved and you have highlighted none of them so how is this 'critical thinking'....
I know my post was offensive.... It wasnt intended that way but phrases misused like 'critical thinking' and 'deep thinking' really piss me off :lol....
Take what offense you want but throwing out general country statistics is not critical thinking :lol
Corporations do not care about the wellbeing of humans. Corporations only care about money.
The only way a corporation will change is if the ones running the corporations are afraid. Either of loosing money or someone getting personal.
Since the least messy way is to hit them in their pockets. As a consumer, how about simply not buying from them and explain others why they should not buy from them. Ethical buying.
And how about instead simply saying that corporation A is evil. Say name, address email and phone number of the executives of corporation A. After all, they are the ones making the decisions and thus the one that should be personally accountable. Until executives are not personally accountable for what they did in the name of the company, there will be no change.
More disgusting facts about Apple and its global supply chain.
"Two weeks later, the factory exploded, killing four workers and injuring 18. In the wake of the explosion, Apple said its suppliers took measures to control aluminum dust. But despite this, in December 2011, another explosion, at an Apple supplier factory in Shanghai, injured 61 workers."
When will workers share in Apple's wealth? (http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/17/opinion/nova-apple-foxconn/index.html)
A company can charge whatever they want for any product they produce,
and pay whatever they want to their employees, as long as the wage complies
with the local laws.
By the same token, people are free not to buy said company's products or services,
nor do they have to work there, unless they are somehow forced to by their government.
@xanatose:
"Corporations only care about money."
That is the purpose of a corporation. To, make money for the people who
invested money in it, not to give away profits to people who took no risks
with their capital.
i would like to believe that there are a few employers who do care about employees :bg
i have worked for a few
probably the best was Telonics
http://www.telonics.com/index.php
Quote from: rags on February 20, 2012, 02:56:41 PM
A company can charge whatever they want for any product they produce,
and pay whatever they want to their employees, as long as the wage complies
with the local laws.
By the same token, people are free not to buy said company's products or services,
nor do they have to work there, unless they are somehow forced to by their government.
@xanatose:
"Corporations only care about money."
That is the purpose of a corporation. To, make money for the people who
invested money in it, not to give away profits to people who took no risks
with their capital.
I disagree.... When a product becomes a societal necessity then people can not decide not to buy, be it drugs or everyday needed technologies.... Furthermore, we are forced by our governments to respect the money/patent system ergo the richest companies.... This is is distinct separation between money and achievement.... I am sure many would make better iPhones, have better working conditions in factories as a USP, if only there were not patents to protect Apple against this.... The ideals of survival of the fittest are warped by patents in this way (monopoly positions).... Those who make the companies work are not the ones with the money but the ones whose lives the money buys.... Those who control the companies are those with the money
iPhone Patents (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17040699)
Effectively business is just a governmental tool, a 'power toy'.... As much as America likes to think otherwise Business and Govenment are very similar beasts and very much in each others pockets....
While you talk of financial 'risk' of investors in reality the people who are spending and risking their lives working for corporations are the ones who are suffering.... It's not like they can just declare themselves bankrupt and then start trading again after 5 years....
Quote from: oex on February 20, 2012, 04:21:21 PM
I am sure many would make better iPhones, have better working conditions in factories as a USP, if only there were not patents to protect Apple against this....
Some people would make more money, and Apple would make less, but why do you assume that these other people would make better products or maintain better working conditions? And how is destroying the incentive to develop new technologies going to make the world a better place?
All this is relevant right now,BUT as we advance into the REAL tech revolution,economy and our treatment of other human beings,it may be all of the stress and strain of economics might become irrelevant. With the use of robotics,we may be freed from these arguments.
Our future may be severely changed,hopefully for the better of the whole species.
Quote from: MichaelW on February 20, 2012, 05:36:38 PM
Some people would make more money, and Apple would make less, but why do you assume that these other people would make better products or maintain better working conditions?
Because people *could* then choose.... Having started many successful businesses for people in highly competitive markets (and not just thrown money at a problem) I know that what sells best *and most fairly* is many companies subscribing to their own ideals and allowing consumers understand and to choose the best ideals when they make their purchases....
People *choose* to buy organic over price and *choose* to buy 'fairtrade' goods over price.... This is fact!
People should be able to make choices (in a civilised world) not on simple robotic functionality but on moral leadership.... The challenge really isnt to develop the products with 7 billion minds but to implement it in a way that benefits society....
Quote from: MichaelW on February 20, 2012, 05:36:38 PM
And how is destroying the incentive to develop new technologies going to make the world a better place?
This is not about destroying incentive either.... Why should ONLY ONE company be able to have a sliding unlock feature? Surely the idea of the patent is that the inventor benefits not that one company succeeds and society suffers if they do not purchase from that one company....
Most highschool students could develop a sliding unlock feature (it's kinda close to the wheel :lol)....
Quote from: anunitu on February 20, 2012, 05:43:50 PM
All this is relevant right now,BUT as we advance into the REAL tech revolution,economy and our treatment of other human beings,it may be all of the stress and strain of economics might become irrelevant. With the use of robotics,we may be freed from these arguments.
Our future may be severely changed,hopefully for the better of the whole species.
Maybe the majority of us just wont be needed anymore :lol
@oex:
My point is that people dont need to buy an iphone, there are plenty other
phones on the market.
people buy new products because they benefit them, they want them, they have a useful function to do something they want.
people buy cheap products because that is what they can afford. Now I won't go into quality of product. Sometimes you buy what you think will do the job. Its kinda like a car although there are problems with this analogy. You start out with a ford, chevy, dodge, because that is what you can afford.
Once you can afford more you buy a Mercedes, Lexus, Rolls, etc. The point is that most people don't get paid enough to afford a 50,000 to 1,000,000 dollar car.
With the decrease in wages in the U.S. people do what they can to save money. They take a chance on a cheaper product hoping it will do what they want. For things that they truly depend on, they will spend as much as they can, that they have. Also if you have money, you can take a chance on a cheaper product without worry of loss, and there are certain items that are required with wealth.
We also have politicians who reduce tariffs from foreign countries to increase profits for US companies that own business's in that country, such as China. The import tax went from 25% to 2% from china. Thank you Senator Grassley... @ss.