We are indeed a sick dumb race of people to let this continue !!
http://costofwar.com/en/
[...I think a dollars per foreign citizen fatality statistic would be more enlightening,...]
Quote from: BILL CRAVENERWe are indeed a sick dumb race of people to let this continue !!
I think everyone agrees with that, Bill.
You're old, right ? Remember all the protests we had at the peak of the Vietnam War ?
...The huge numbers of angry students we had in the streets of all our major cities,...
:eek Clearly, no one cares anymore. :eek
When do you think World War III will begin ? Do you think anyone will even notice ?
Quote from: baltoro on April 18, 2011, 05:06:05 PM
:eek Clearly, no one cares anymore. :eek
The only time people care is when it directly affects their own life. The students were at risk of being drafted so they cared. The mothers had sons dying in the jungle so they cared. The politicians saw it as a way to garner support so they cared. The modern way to wage a war is to do it in a way that has little or no impact back home, at least in a direct way. You abolish the draft and do not allow any rationing and the people will not care, they will hardly notice the war is going on. No protesters worried about being picked up off the street and sent to die in Afghanistan or any other place just a lot of volunteers who everybody assumes that knew when they signed up what the consequences would be. When you're talking trillions of dollars it tends to lose its meaning, take another $10 in taxes and the people will revolt, take a trillion in loans and they hardly notice. So its not that nobody cares anymore, the government has set it up so that there is nothing to "care" about.
The fastest way to end the hemorrhaging of cash in foreign wars is to re-institute the draft, then people will have something to care about.
Quote from: baltoro on April 18, 2011, 05:06:05 PM
You're old, right ? Remember all the protests we had at the peak of the Vietnam War ?
...The huge numbers of angry students we had in the streets of all our major cities,...
I was one of those protesters way back then baltoro. The young these days are the ones that don't seem to give a shit.
World war three couldn't come soon enough as for as I'm concerned. The world needs a good cleansing including the United States of America!
Where's that meteorite impact when you need one?? That would fix things!!
I know, I know, I sound like an angry citizen but its the truth, I am very angry!!
Quote from: donkey on April 18, 2011, 05:24:00 PM
So its not that nobody cares anymore, the government has set it up so that there is nothing to "care" about.
More than that, they've given them an incentive to care the other way; the vast majority of that trillion dollars that's being "wasted" ends up in the payroll of private companies who supply defense contractors. If they stop shooting down helicopters, they'll build fewer helicopters, which means the helicopter company will buy less paper and toner, which means the paper company ships less products, which means they'll use fewer boxes, and so the poor guy driving the cardboard delivery truck gets the pink slip. Precious few americans would be willing to give up a steady job in exchange for keeping nameless, faceless people from getting shot two thousand miles away.
I think they missed the wars on Drugs and Poverty, which also seem to be rat-holes for cash, with no obvious path to exit/victory/success.
Back in the Vietnam era, you had three choices Join the Navy(as I did)..get drafted..or go to canada..
After I got out of the service, I protested the War, but mostly because of all the friends that never made it back from that War.
:P
i joined the army - and signed up for airborne infantry
same reason, though - i was tired of seeing my friends come home in a box
What's really shocking about the whole 'cost of war' issue is not what the US government is currently paying in it's Congressionally sanctioned military operations,...but, the burden that future generations must bear for our myopic actions,...
:eek Imagine,...if you will,...a world in which the United States is no longer a Super-Power,...a world in which the population of Earth is 15 billion people,...a world in which most strategic resources have been exhausted,...and, the vast majority of the world's population is reduced to a desperate struggle just to get enough food to survive the day,...
(Admittedly, this is an extremely pessimistic scenario,...but, in a very real sense, what we do today eliminates options that people will have depended on in the future.
...Which, of course, takes all the fun out of time-travel,...)
Quote from: EDGARThe only time people care is when it directly affects their own life.
The fastest way to end the hemorrhaging of cash in foreign wars is to re-institute the draft, then people will have something to care about.
Well, I can certainly understand why you said that, Edgar. But, as I'm sure you are aware,...the situation is alot more complicated than that.
The United States grants way too much power and resources to our military (and, has since the Reagan era),...who, in large measure, use it to keep their hold on power and demand ever larger budgetary appropriations. The reasons we start wars don't even make any sense anymore,...at least, in the conventional sense.
To simplify the situation,...the United States has experienced an incredible expansion of it's economy, and, an impressive increase in its standard of living since World War II. But, it has come at the price of maximum development and industrialization, and, almost unlimited resource exploitation,...without much concern for the well-being of future Americans (or, anyone else, really),...and, this has created the perception for most Americans of invincibility. It's an illusion. Numerous rigorous scientific studies have concluded that the American way of life cannot be sustained indefinitely (or, even much more than another couple of decades at most). But, of course, if you are a politician, running for office, you can't tell the American people that and expect to get elected.
What we really need is for the entire population of the planet to become buddhists in a very short time frame (say, two hours),...and, then, with peace and love in our hearts,...all of us should just cease to be boring, greedy assholes,...voluntarily,...of course,...
:eek ...But, we all know it'll never happen,... :eek
I have just watched a 2 part documentary on the secret war on terror and the well know phenomenon of unexpected consequences has come back to haunt the countries that perpetrated the original invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. Go barging into someone elses country, smash it with "splat tech" military hardware, massacres your way through their women and children, destroy the infrastructure of the country, obliterate the country's economy and SURPRISE SURPRISE they hate you for it and not only will they fight you over it but even more dangerously they succeed in recruiting people in yours and my country to carry out the attacks for them.
Now this may not appear to make sense until you see what interests are being served, invent some phony bullsh*t reason for invading/saving/humanitarian intervention/reduction of civilian collateral damage then go barging in with all of the known consequences and suddenly there is a need to replace all of those cruise missiles that were pelted at Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya recently. Then there are the aircrafts that are getting older, a new wave of ever more expensive small arms, ammo, RPGs, trucks, Jeeps, the latest and most expensive high tech artillery and all of the support to keep it going then add to this the cost of feeding an army in some foreign sh*thole and guess who is the patsy who is funding this debacle ?
Lets have a guess here, there is you and me and every other tax payer in the "attack" countries and it goes out of your pocket through governments that are pissing this fortune against the wall straight into the pockets of a number of well known corporations who in turn pay very little if any tax back into the country's income.
Now just have a look at the costs of funding the war in Afghanistan, for a fraction of the cost you could have built 12 lane superhighways all over the country complete with side camel tracks and watering holes and a Mosque at every second stop.
:eek ...Well said, hutch,...so,...is it COMPLETELY HOPELESS ???
Can't we just generate some more paperwork,...pass some Federal legislation,...borrow enough money to paralyze the global financial system,...???
...Some ingenious way we can save the world without actually setting the remote down on the coffee table,...and, getting up off the couch,... :bg
...Hell,...I'm almost as angry as BILL CRAVENER,...
Nah,
Come on, don't be an "easy beat". Its funny that people from afar see the strengths of the US in ways that locals cannot see, something like can't see the wood for the trees. The last 10 years of damage has made a mess of many things and wasted the lives of many people in the US yet the basics of recovery are still there. Even though many people with highly useful skills have been dumped on the scrapheap, they still know what they are doing, industry may be been PHUKED over but the basic infrastructure is still there, the real need is political change.
Piss off the Federal Reserve so that Americans own their own money, disconnect the unconstitutional rights of corporations to be treated like citizens and pull the plug on rediculous military spending so that the nation's income is spent on the nation, not military hardware that ends up on the scrapheap in some foreign sh*thole for no purpose. The real power of America is not in exploitation of people but in its long history of giving people the chance of having a decent life. Re-empower ordinary Americans, ensure they have work, protect them from economic and physical abuse and the US will rise again.
The Wilbur and Orvilles, Henry Fords, Samuel Colts and so on were innovative creative people who helped make America strong, the money shuffling, exploitation, wars and cripling the population have weakened the US. We saw a massive shift with the population movement that elected Obama and a similar shift when the Democrats failed to deliver on their promises, the changes can be made by changing governments and polititians and once they get used to the idea that if they don't perform they get arseh*led out the door they will start to do things better.
Now if you managed to get laws passed where you could tar and feather polititians who did not perform you may just see an even further improvement in their conduct.
we need to take this, essentially embezzled, money back and pour it into the economy
i am refering mostly to haliburton, but boards of other politically porking corporations, as well
these fuckers take all that money and stuff it in their swiss pillow or other offshore caches
that money belongs to the US citizens, and it should have come back to them in the way of wages
you can blame bush for allowing it to happen, but it was largely orchestrated by cheney
for my money, the whole lot needs to spend their remaining years in a penitentiary
There is a cheaper approach, dress up some guy as Captain Hook, look for a nice tall building in the Big Apple then put a plank out from the top so its a clear drop to the pavement below. Now those who only exploited ordinary people by small amounts (under a million) get tarred and feathered and sent off to Alaska but the R-Souls who ripped off ordinary people big time can "walk the plank".
Whats you last word ? Maaaarma !
Have an audience below of very unhappy citizens who are out of pocket from these bastards and then you can place bets on the size of the SPLAT and the frequency of the screams on the way down. Do a dirty deal with a fertiliser company so that after each couple of hundred SPLATS, they come in, clean up the mess and convert it to something useful. You would have to make sure they were assett stripped first, fancy homes, Lear jets, expensive cars and all of their bank accounts recovered to offset the costs they have imposed on ordinary people but you could probably get something back to re-imburse all those folks that have been ripped off.
death is too easy for them
i want them to suffer for as long as possible
as i mentioned, they ripped off the citizens of the US
but, in doing so, they have screwed everyone in the entire world
i don't understand why there isn't more of an international cry for their conviction
You know the answer to why Dave, what it has ALWAYS been, those that have the Gold, make the rules...(also the more Bread you have, the less Sh*t you have to eat in a sh*t sandwitch.)
:eek ...Who would have ever guessed that the MASM Forum would become a hotbed of political activism,... ??? :eek
[...Still comfortably sitting on the couch, though,...]
Quote from: THE DAVE...I don't understand why there isn't more of an international cry for their conviction,...
:toothy ...When was the last time you did jury duty ??? :toothy
i don't understand the relevance of that question
but, seriously, that has nothing to do with what happens in other countries
it seems to me that citizens of other countries would have more sway, in this case, than US citizens
yet, i have heard nothing from outside the US about how bush/cheney/haliburton have fucked the whole world
when US citizens bitch about it, it falls on deaf ears
they could be tried in International Court at the Hague
:eek ...Sorry, Dave,... :eek
...As you've no doubt noticed,...I have a weird sense of humor. I am sympathetic to your point of view,...but, have you ever heard the comment: "...too dumb to figure out how to get out of jury duty" ??? Yeah. My point is: the justice department has a very difficult time prosecuting these complicated types of cases specificially because the typical jury is unable to follow the machiavellian intricacies of the case and return with a conviction. Everyone knows this,...and, so,...the district attorneys rarely even file the charges. They try to plea negotiate. This NEVER works.
They should put a death squad of irate assembly programmers in charge of rehabilitating these miscreants. It might actually be kinda fun.
:bg
Now come on, doesn't the Alaska connection have some appeal, render them through Botswanaland to Russia then secretly fly them across the straights to northern Alaska where its genuinely COLD. Feed them a bowl of some horrible gruel a day and flog them into working off their debt at a dollar a day. If the old Soviet could run secret gulags, why can't the US do it better ?
You could draft the people who ran the "facility" in Iraq and make the jailers in northern Alaska, a fitting end for both. :P
Is interesting how there could be homeless people in the USA when the government is burning money.
BTW: What happen to the: Leaving Iraq and Afganistan that Obama (nobel prize of peace) campain was based upon?
Does anyone knows how to initialize a peoples movement (a non violent way)? I am getting tired of all this and have some time to burn. I do not want to start a political party but just try and make people realize that if they continue to give their vote blindly all this will continue.
well, i guess you can either pick up a gun or pick up a pen
effective writing, whether it's books or articles, seems to be the best non-violent alternative
Quote from: XANATOSE...Does anyone knows how to initialize a peoples movement,...
Most of us here at the MASM forum are REALLY OLD,...and, we can all remember the public demonstrations that occurred in the United States in the 1970s. These were eventually effective in convincing the US government that the majority of American citizens were genuinely opposed to the Vietnam War.
The sheer numbers of people inviolved, and their dedication to political organization, and their persistence at recruiting ambivalent citizens was astounding. Frankly, I was amazed at the time that it could be done. But, those were the best of times, and, people were willing to give their lives to the righteous cause.
I don't think you'll ever see that kind of thing in America again.
Quote from: baltoroI don't think you'll ever see that kind of thing in America again.
Just wait until the parasitical half start loosing the unsupportable/unsustainable benefits they keep voting themselves, but not paying for. Sooner or later the people carrying all the freight will leave, or the money will simply run out. The kids of today simply aren't going to care a crap about the protestors from the 70's, now retired, and ill prepared to support themselves, when they start carping about all the benefits they are due. This will become particular focused, when the government tells the kids that these benefits won't be there for them, or at least finally admits it rather than kicking the can down the road. There won't be a protests, there will be a bloody revolution.
Quote from: Bill Cravener on April 18, 2011, 05:28:32 PMWorld war three couldn't come soon enough as for as I'm concerned. The world needs a good cleansing including the United States of America!
AMEN!!!!
Some wars are totally avoidable; others are a pre-requisite to cleaning out the trash once in a while.
QuoteBTW: What happen to the: Leaving Iraq and Afganistan that Obama (nobel prize of peace) campain was based upon?
Well if the news about just short of 600 insurgents escaping prison in Afghanistan is anything to go by we're either going to stay a bit longer (very likely), or quit now (very unlikely).
Another crazy thought: did we let it happen? We were supposed to be over-seeing the Afghans running their own security, and this happens without our knowledge? I find it hard to believe. We didn't have ANYONE in there monitoring anything?
Best regards,
Robin.
Quote from: dedndave on April 26, 2011, 08:02:53 PM
well, i guess you can either pick up a gun or pick up a pen
effective writing, whether it's books or articles, seems to be the best non-violent alternative
In order to pick a gun, you first need suporters. Otherwise they will kill you and make you a terrorist with the bought out media.
But a pen can only go so far. So I guess its a two step phase. First take a pen and gather suporters then take a gun.
For taking a pen, and maximizing results, one needs to know who to target. This in turn would allow to know the how and when.
I keep posting this one. Stop the phucking wars !!
http://costofwar.com/en/
And this.
QuoteFor starters, $1.2 trillion would pay for an unprecedented public health campaign — a doubling of cancer research funding, treatment for every American whose diabetes or heart disease is now going unmanaged and a global immunization campaign to save millions of children's lives.
What $1.2 Trillion Can Buy (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/17/business/17leonhardt.html)
Hi Bill,
I think 1.2 trillion is a low ball estimate of the real cost of the wars. It's probably well over 2 trillion in real terms, but in reality its just an estimate since there are no real accounting principles applied to government spending. Government ledgers generally have more make believe in them than a Tolkien novel, they are designed from the ground up to meet a political talking point and not to reflect actual account balances. The removal of Saddam and the destabilization of the Taliban were arguably good objectives, however the commitment should have stopped there, it does nothing to pump in trillions of dollars and force soldiers into the role of "rent a cops" trying to rebuild a country that was a sh*thole before we got there and will be afterward regardless of how much wealth is wasted on them. I agree with you, its time for the troops to come home, their mission was completed years ago and keeping them there was never a military decision but a purely political one, we should have just blown them into the stone age and left it at that.
i think the us gov't is dumping about a trillion a year into the 2 wars combined
of course, most of it goes to haliburton
at least their board of directors is happy (http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/18.gif)
i know, i know - the gov't isn't supposed to be "in business"
but, they are still making a profit by all the oil pumped out of Azerbaijan
(http://gdb.rferl.org/16265FBE-CABB-4541-A9E8-081E421F369C_mw800_mh600_s.jpg)
:bg
> trying to rebuild a country that was a sh*thole before we got there
No, after. Over 10 years of bombings and sanctions and all of those wicked weapons of mass destruction that Saddam was about to use on Europe and the US, the damage done by the combined allies invading and massacring their way through Iraq left the place worse off.
Smashing small defenseless countries seems to be the way. Iraq 1, Somalia, Yugoslavia, Iraq 2, Afghanistan and about all that is stopping US support for smashing Libya is the Chinese will not loan them enough money to fund it and US taxpayers are getting tired of funding wars themselves.
There is mileage for any country under threat to have some form of nuclear deterrant like the loonies in Iran and North Korea, poor old Gaddafi has just learnt that giving away his nuclear capacity leads to air attack and invasion.
Quote from: hutch-- on May 07, 2011, 02:15:53 AM
No, after. Over 10 years of bombings and sanctions and all of those wicked weapons of mass destruction that Saddam was about to use on Europe and the US, the damage done by the combined allies invading and massacring their way through Iraq left the place worse off.
Canada never participated in the war in Iraq, I was talking about Afghanistan.
this proverb says it all ...hope some sort of inspiration to us
I am not only a pacifist but a militant pacifist. I am willing to fight for peace. Nothing will end war unless the people themselves refuse to go to war.
Albert Einstein :clap:
This poor old bastard finds it a might difficult to fathom 1 trillion dollars. I read somewhere that if you take a trillion stacked as 1000 dollar bills it would rich near 80 miles high. That's about how far I live from Pittsburgh, which takes me driving at 65 miles an hour near an hour and a half to get there. And that's mostly straight freeway driving. Our national dept exceeds 14 trillion, that's equal to 7 round trips to Pittsburgh and back. Lets see, 1120 mile long stack of 1000 dollar bills, now try and visualise that one . . . ah, forget about it! (http://www.quickersoft.com/pictures/confused.gif)
http://www.usdebtclock.org
:bg
Edgar,
I am not sure that the combined allied efforts there have been any more successful. My brother traveled through Afghanistan before the Russians PHUKED it over the first time and it apparently was an interesting place before all the damage was done. With a history of defeating every invader from Alexander the Great onwards including the previous invasion by the Russians who flattened the place in about a week with old Soviet style "splash tech", I am astounded that anyone would be so stupid as to think they were going to do better. The Mujahadeen turned Taliban are freedom fighters defending their country from invaders just like all the rest before them and they will never give up as they have nowhere else to go.
Stupidity and arrogance are two sides of the same coin here, the only winner from an unwinnable war are those who make money out of it even though the human cost on both sides is rediculous. The solution is to do a dirty deal with Sheik Omar, buy him a set of thoroughbred racing camels with parts of the Koran engraved on the saddles, support the Pakistani military so they can keep the Taliban out of North Pakistan and get the PHUK out of there.
Now to fuel the sheer stupidity of a clapped out military alliance like NATO, spread the word that Slobodan Bin Gadaffi is being hidden in Canada by Stephen harper and the OIL sands mining areas need to be neutralised so that they cannot afford to sponsor terrorists any longer and they will have something to do after PHUKING Libya. :P
QuoteOur national dept exceeds 14 trillion, that's equal to 7 round trips to Pittsburgh and back.
before bush took office, it was ~1 trillion, as i recall
i was flabergasted, then :P
Quote from: dedndave on May 07, 2011, 10:44:24 AM
before bush took office, it was ~1 trillion, as i recall
i was flabergasted, then :P
I have always said that if the conservatives call liberals "tax and spend" then the conservatives should be called "spend and spend". In Canada we had 8 consecutive surplus budgets, each paying down the national debt in the neighborhood of 10 billion, the conservatives ran an 80 billion dollar debt in their first year, wiping out the advances and about the same every year since. All of that while at the same time cutting services, though they "assure" us that by 2015 we'll have a balanced budget again ::) The same is essentially true for the US, Clinton and the Democrats ran balanced budgets until the Bush Republicans took over then the money started hemorrhaging again, Reagan took the smallest government debt since WWII (as a % of GDP) and turned it into the largest debt ever even conceived all the while managing to convince everyone he was a spend thrift.
I wonder if Cheney and his sidekicks (I dont count Bush as he was just a moron) would ever get what they deserve.
I mean, this guy cannot atone for all the damage that he has done, not even in a 1,000 lifetimes. Does anyone knows of the death toll in Iraq? I know that after the 1st year it was like 500,000 Iraquis. Here in the USA we only count the USA people death, but seem to not care about the Iraquis that died in a war that they did not provoke.
BTW:
Shouldn't we be bombing Pakistan. After all they did hide Osama. Wasn't that the excuse for bombing Afganistan and then Iraq?
Quote from: xanatose on May 12, 2011, 04:47:06 AMI know that after the 1st year it was like 500,000 Iraquis.
Wow, 500,000, I guess around 350,00 of them were re-incarnated then. It was the ORB poll that came up with that figure, it has since been thoroughly discredited and the methodology used to calculate the number is little more guesswork. The more statistically sound estimates put the figure of total deaths at around 150,000. Compare that to the estimated total deaths in the 6 years of the second world war of nearly 60 million and it seems a trivial number. More people have died in car accidents in the US since 2003 than have died in Iraq. Saddam is estimated to have executed 300,000 Iraqis, that does not include soldiers who died in his pointless wars which is estimated to be over a million. Amnesty international puts the number of civilians executed by Saddam at over 500,000, but most agree that that figure is probably not accurate.
Even if the figure of 150 is reasonable, it makes an awful lot of very unhappy Iraqis and feeds the recruitment for Al Queda very effectively. Where Saddam actively supressed Al Queda, under the combined allies invasion of Iraq Al Queda is a thriving organisation.
On the flip side, the Crazy Ayotollahs are more than pleased about the influence shift in their part of the world thanks to the combined allies trashing Iraq.
Quote from: hutch-- on May 12, 2011, 06:48:40 AM
Even if the figure of 150 is reasonable, it makes an awful lot of very unhappy Iraqis and feeds the recruitment for Al Queda very effectively. Where Saddam actively supressed Al Queda, under the combined allies invasion of Iraq Al Queda is a thriving organisation.
Well, Al Qaeda doesn't need a lot of recruits and the Iraq war isn't going to make that much of a difference, you don't need highly trained troops to strap a bomb to themselves so having a larger pool of retards to chose from isn't that much of an advantage. The fact is that Al Qaeda would still get recruits if the US wasn't in Iraq and they would get enough to strap on every bomb they have and more. The US presence in Iraq and Afghanistan have done nothing to strengthen Al Qaeda or swell its numbers, it does however yield useful intelligence and destabilize the enemy. The effectiveness of the war is not an issue, its the cost, and that exceeds the value of the target.
BTW all effective attacks by Al Qaeda against the US were perpetrated
before the coalition went into Afghanistan or removed Saddam so I can't see where having Saddam "suppress" Al Qaeda and all the while provide funding to terrorists and pensions to suicide bombers families can be cited as an advantage.
Edgar,
You make an obvious mistake in underestimating an enemy, they can just wait the combined allies out as they did in Iraq and are doing so in Afghanistan as the cost to the combined allies of trying to suppress a shadowy organisation like Al Queda is a weapon of war they are successfully using. Asymetrical warfare beat the Russians in Afghanistan and their invasion made the combined NATO version look like a Sunday School Picnic. You don't have to worry about the Taliban Air Force, they cannot pedal that fast or put wings on their camels but in conjunction with th loosly knit international organisation like Al Queda, they can keep doing more damage financially to the combined allies than any 9/11 style attack.
If you consider that trashing Iraq and helping Al Queda to get a foothold there as well as changing the balance of power in the Persian Gulf is a success, then we differ on fundamental notions of what success is. I call it a fiasco of unintended consequences that have made the world a much more dangerous place.
Quote from: donkey on May 12, 2011, 05:10:29 AM
More people have died in car accidents in the US since 2003 than have died in Iraq.
Ah so that's how the price of oil is estimated.... :lol
I recently watched an English source documentary on the secret war against Al Queda and contrary to popular myth about having them on the run, in 2009 Al Queda outsmarted the CIA in Kost Afghanistan and successfully penetrated their security with a clever ruse involving Jordanian intelligence and took out about 7 CIA members with a suicide bomb. Apparently including the head of the CIA operation there. The CIA operation was involved in gathering intelligence for drone attacks in the tribal belt of Pakistan.
It is indeed a foolish mistake to underestimate an enemy that is smarter than you are and is willing to die to achieve their ends. Bin Laden was past his use by date after 9/11 so while it may help get Obama re-elected, it will not change the risk that the previous US administration imposed on much of the rest of the world with its clumsy war mongering. At least Obama appears to have his head screwed on properly but is saddled with a loonie tune Tea Party adversary that would perform all of the blunders of the Bush era again if they could.
The video from the suicide bomber Khalid Al Balawi is an education for any who think that Al Queda has been beaten. Maybe it should be in the CIA training manual so they know what they are dealing with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War
One estimate is 151,000
another 621,000
Yet Another 1,033,000
lets go for the lesser one (the one from wikileaks)
92,003 civlian deaths.
I do not care if you support or not the military. 92,003 deaths of civilians is not acceptable. Specially since Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. This deaths where caused directly by the lies that the Bush administration created. Thus directly on the heads of moron Bush and evil Cheney.