10' satellite Woes

[shankle]

I thought with all the building of puters and engineering talent here that maybe I could get some
insight in how to get this satellite dish working.
Hutch - If this is to far off topic, delete please.
First my sob story.  A tree fell on my 8' Orbitron and wiped it out. I was left with the pole and the actuator.
I found a 10' fine mesh dish which I have reconditioned.
After weeks of trying I can't get any signals on C or KU band.
Here are the stats of my setup:

Pansat 2800a receiver
Uniden sq530 (used as a dish pusher - might replace with a g-box)
LNB bsc621-2d (no markings to set focal depth)
Pico-Peaker Model pp1450 (useless to me as I don't know how to work it)
Latitude -      29.1024
Longitude -    -82.4838 - giving a polar axis of 29.62 and a declination of 4.20
120" dish width by 19" depth - giving a focal length of 47.36".
LNB is pointing at the center of the dish as close as I can make it with a long stick.

I went on "satsig.net" and entered some values to get the following analysis:
Items with the ??, I have no idea what they mean.
dish azimuth(deg e relative to true North 236.7??)
dish azimuth(deg e relative to magnetic North 240.37??)  (how do I measure this?)
slant range(km) 37957.86? (how does this apply to me)
polarization tilt(deg)  46.91?? (I guess this means turning the LNB 46 degrees to
    the right facing the dish from  straight up)
polar axis  29.73 OK
polar declination  4.21 OK
dish elevation (deg)  37.73??  (Is this  set with a long bar set vertically across the
   face of the dish?) If so it is not the addition of 29.73 + 4.21 which equals 33.94)
No local guys to help with this as I am willing to pay for some help.

[dedndave]

are you in Florida ?
http://www.dishpointer.com/

[shankle]

Hi Dedndave,
Thanks for replying.
Yes I am in north central Florida.
I know about those sites and they don't help with my problem.
I know my lat and long. and they are correct.
Also my main axis angle is correct and so is the declination.
I got those from several places like "Sigsat.net".
The LNB polarization is a probable.
No markings or directions for installing to be found anywhere.
I think the focal point is also correct.

[dedndave]

tell us which "bird" you are trying to hit   :bg

i had to do this a couple times, but i had a spectrum analyzer to see and peak the signals (i.e. i cheated)  :P
it can be frustrating because, nowdays, there is a bird every 1/2 degree across the sky

according to this image, your magnetic declination is ~4 degrees,
so - the difference between true north and magnetic north looks about right
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Mv-world.jpg

the slant range is the distance from your dish to the bird
that value is of little use, other than it is interesting
it might help if you wanted to draw the triangle or do the other calculations manually, though
it is the hypotonuse of the triangle

as for spotting north (either true or magnetic), i usually try to find some landmark that is visible from the antenna
the farther away it is, the more accurate your result
then you can use google to get the exact azimuth of that landmark from your dish
use that to "calibrate" your dish azimuth
it helps if your dish has azimuth markings on it
if not, you can scratch a few marks across the rotating parts if you want
you want to aim the dish roughly WSW (240.37 degrees from true north)

polarization tilt(deg)  46.91?? (I guess this means turning the LNB 46 degrees to the right facing the dish from  straight up)

you got it - rotate the LNB ~47 degrees clockwise (as the bird sees the dish)
http://www.satsig.net/polangle.htm

the dish elevation is the angle between your dish and the ground
it may not add up the way you think (it confused me until i drew the triangle)

nice house you have, there
being in Arizona, i really miss the green trees



oh - the focal point is the distance from the center of the dish to the dipole part of the antenna
(that would be the base of the horn, roughly)

[dedndave]

Pico-Peaker PP1450 instruction sheet (aka The Sky Peaker+)
http://www.satelliteguys.us/attachment.php?attachmentid=39604&d=1247682989

[shankle]

Thanks Dedndave for replying.
Spector Analyzer is Cheating :bg
Must be nice.

I am trying to pull in birds from 55 degrees to 121 degrees.
There are no markings on my dish. It is probably 20 to 30 years old.

Still don't understand the 240.37 degrees from the north. North is 0 degrees. Right?
That's 60 degrees west of due south. Can't be. 4 or 5 degrees past 180 degrees maybe.

If you are familiar with the BSC621-2d LNB, does the mean the label is 46 degrees right
of vertical. No other marks on it. Or does that mean something inside the feed horn?
They have pictures of it plastered all over the net.

You got my house - what you can see of it.
Think I have the focal point correct. Azimuth seems to be my nemesis.

Dish elevation - where do I set that. Big bolt on back sets the angle of the rocker
arm. Axis angle at 29.73 degrees. Big bolt on front of rocker arm sets the declination (4.20).
Add the two together and that is the angle of the plate on the back of the dish 33.94.
Sigsats figures and mine differ slightly but so small I can't adjust that fine anyway.

Thanks for the pdf on the Pico Meter.

[dedndave]

i see what you mean
reading up a little - it seems to be a strange unit

some of the guys reported it sux for Ku band
i don't think they had it hooked up right or, perhaps, they did not have a compatible reciever

http://www.satelliteguys.us/c-band-satellite-discussion/207512-bsc-621-a.html
http://www.satelliteguys.us/c-band-satellite-discussion/189414-bsc621c-2-a.html

[dedndave]

37.73 degrees (your satsig spec) is a relatively long way from 33.94 (what you appear to have)
3 degrees will kill ya totally - lol
get it as close to 37.73 as you can - then use the meter to fine tune
of course, this will change for each bird
if you have both motors (azimuth and elevation), it may take some adjustment to get it to work right on more than 2 birds

there is a lot to getting it set up
you have to get the reciever set up correctly for the LNB you have
AND
get the motors to track the arc across the sky
i never had to mess with those, the ones i had to align were fixed
i was working for SSE Datacom (formerly Fairchild Data)
we had one dish for video conference calls and another for internet
of course, there were other guys in the company (back east) that i could get ahold of if i got stuck
seeing as we were in the business of building satellite data modems, we had a few experts on hand   :P
the spectrum analyzer made it easier, of course
not only could i see changes in the signal strength, but i could identify most of the signal types by looking at the sidebands
TV signals look very different from data signals

as for the azimuth of 240 degrees, that may be correct for one of the many birds
the arc goes from one horizon to the other - there are birds all along the arc
that angle is specific for one of the birds - that is why i asked which bird it was

[shankle]

I'm still befuddled about the dish elevation of 37.73.
This is the procedure I followed.
1. set the rocker arm to 29.73 degrees.
2. added 4.21 to 29.73 giving 33.94.
This was the angle that the back round center plate had to be adjusted to
(using the big bolt in the front of the rocker arm) to get the declination to equal 4.21.
I know of no other way of doing it. As you see I am rather confused.
Maybe the 37.73 is measured on the face of the dish with a straight edge
and inclinator giving the correct declination?

Yes, each end point has to be adjusted for the arc.

So am I not right about the magnetic North being just 3 or 4 degrees right of true north
at my Latitude?

[shankle]

Yes I know about the sateliite guys site. I have a long post there titled
"can't align a 10' satellite dish" in the c-band forum. They didn't want
to come down to my level. 

[dedndave]

ok - the 33.94 degrees is probably the correct angle for some "reference bird"
that angle will change as you track the arc across the sky
when you punched in your numbers to get the values in your first post, you must have specified some bird as the target
which one ?
i know you want to get all of them, but it makes a difference - you will get different azimuth/elevation for each bird
if you want to get a visual idea of how the arc tracks across your sky,
you can get azimuth and elevation numbers for several birds (at least 3)
for us, the arc is an elipse from just south of the east horizon to just south of the west horizon
in order to set up the antenna so you can get all of them, you need to track that arc all the way across
i wish you'd invite me over for a beer - it would be much easier to explain in person - lol

your magnetic north is 3.67 degrees west of true north
so, if you start from magnetic north and go clockwise 240.37 degrees,
you will wind up at the same azimuth as if you start at true north and go clockwise 237.7 degrees

[dedndave]

i get a different declination angle for you from diskpoint.com
it says your magnetic north is 4.8 degrees west of true north

[shankle]

Here is where I got my feet wet: "satellitehelp.com".
My Latitude is 29.1024 degrees. The polar angle is just a fraction more than my latitude.
29.62. The chart on satellitehelp.com shows a declination of 4.20. The face of the dish
or a flat place on the back then must be 29.2 + 4.20 = 33.82. This is slightly different than
what shows on "sigsat".  Have no idea why. These settings were made when the dish is
due South and at the highest point of the arc. This for me is about 82 degrees and
satellite nimik 4. A KU bird. Can't align on a KU bird 1st as they are more sensitive than
the C-band satellites. The declination is fixed with a big bolt and doesn't change with
the movement of the dish. However the face of the dish does changes as it is moved
from west to east.
To get the figures that I got on satsig I entered -119 for echostar7 and 29.1034 and
-82.4838. I agree by entering other satellites the dish elevation changes.
The other values remain the same.
To my understanding declination has nothing to do with true north or magnetic north.
So I am still confused about azimuth. A 3 or 4 degree west of true north should be my
magnetic north. The other stuff confuses me.

I will follow this with a bunch of azimuth and elevation figures for a lot of birds.

You can have 3 or 4 beers if you just happen to be this way.
Just a short bike ride from Arizona. :bg

[dedndave]

well - i am using the term "declination" to refer to the difference between magnetic north and true north
perhaps, in satellite lingo, the term "declination" is used to mean something else
if that is the case, i can see why you might be confused
the declination i am refering to is a kind of correction applied to azimuth
it sounds like you are applying a correction to elevation
let me look into it further tomorrow and we'll see if we can't clear it up
it is good to have a few of the birds you want - we can use those to get some points

[shankle]

Yes, I am having trouble with terminology. I see what  you are saying and my declination
understanding is shown in the one on satellitehelp.com.
Maybe I am also having problems with the word elevation.

Here are a few birds:
bird               degree       elevation
intelsat 805    55             44.62
amazonus 1    61             48.97
telstar 14       63             49.86
amc6             72             54.14
echostar 1      77             55.52
nimik 4           82             56.05  (this is almost directly overhead at my latitude)
amc 16          85              55.94
nimik 1           91             54.78
galaxy 3c        95             53.36
amc 4           101            50.42
echostar 10   110            44.62
xm 4             115            40.89
echostar 7     119            37.73  ( used this one to get values on satsig)
echostar 9     121            36.11

So by putting a straight edge on the face of the dish I should be able to tell what
degree and satellite the dish is pointing at. Right? Then all I have to worry about is azimuth.
The Uniden pusher is so old that the sats are obsolete and all I have is a click count.
I probably should replace it with a G-box.

However the elevations seem backwards to me. The steepest face slope of the dish
is at its extreme west position and extreme east position. What do I know.