Christmas in America.

[Tedd]

The amusing thing is that the biggest 'spongers' are those that evade millions in taxes through the use of accountants, while the amount taken by the poor and 'undeserved' is insignificant in comparison.

[xanatose]

Santa hates poor kids.
Thats why he bring the best gift to the rich ones.  :bdg

As of government:
"A government big enough to give you everything you need, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have...." -- Thomas Jefferson.

True, but not the whole true. Because of law, government places limitations on what you can or not do. And does so by force. Our nature is free so any imposition by government or otherwise must come with an equal opportunity. We see that banks that have no problem kicking people out of their homes, get bailout money plus zero interest money. While the ones that have nothing get abused and, on some states, even being homeless is illegal, as anywhere you are you will be subject to vagrancy laws.  Sure they can be challenged in court, but if the person has no home, where is he/she going to get the money for lawyers.

The whole law is based on money. Which means that a rich person will not pass a single day in jail until his/her case in seeing. As they can post bail. A poor person with no money for bail will spend time on jail irrelevant if he/she was innocent and without ANY compensation. Except maybe the lost of his way of living. This can be seen to the extreme in Florida, where a person in death row, 20 years in jail and found innocent by genetics, only get 100$ and a pair of jeans.

IMBO. If society and government place rules upon an individual. Society and government also responsible in part for the wellbeing of the individual. And so far, society and government have place a lot of rules that apply only to the poor, without giving anything in return. And what society and government should give in return, again IMBO, is a fair chance. Unfortunately that is not the case neither on Capitalism, nor on Communism.

"Everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others." -- George Orwell, in Animal Farm.

People say that Animal Farm is about Communism. But they forget see that the society before the animal revolution was a Capitalist one. And just as unfair as the later Communist one. Only in the few days after the revolution the animals where in a fair state. So I guess that the natural order is to fight for your chance. Irrelevant of law or government. As if you do not fight, no one is going to do it for you. 

[anunitu]

xanatose

Very interesting post.
I was pondering some things I read about. A person that fought against the natzis in Germany is still listed as a Traitor(his family is trying to change that. He fought for his belif that natzis were evil,so he did what he could to follow his best intentions(morals)(humanity).

You can be called a Hero,even if what you do is morally wrong,as long as your Government backs what you do. To refuse following a bad moral decision you could end up labeled a Traitor.

[MichaelW]

The amusing thing is that the biggest 'spongers' are those that evade millions in taxes through the use of accountants, while the amount taken by the poor and 'undeserved' is insignificant in comparison.

IMO the rich should pay more in taxes than they do, but how can they be considered "spongers" when they pay most of the taxes that are paid?

[Bill Cravener]

IMO the rich should pay more in taxes than they do, but how can they be considered "spongers" when they pay most of the taxes that are paid?

I don't much like spongers be they rich or poor but to deny that the rich do not sponge is incorrect. Much of the wealthiest income is from dividends and capital gains generated by everything from appreciated real estate to stocks, the sale of family businesses or inheritance, and that's just to name a few ways the rich get richer. As Warren Buffett likes to put it, since most of his income is from dividends, his tax rate is less than that of the people who clean his office. For those who can afford a shrewd accountant or attorney our tax laws are loaded with opportunity to avoid or at the least defer tax bills. These shrewd ways the wealthy use to limit the taxes they pay are limited only by the boundaries of taste, creativity, and the ability to understand some very complex shelters. While the top 10 percent control over 90 percent of America's wealth the bottom 90 percent are saddled with over 70 percent of all debt. So yes the rich are spongers, big time spongers! Certainly more so then the poor could ever imagine being.

[jj2007]

IMO the rich should pay more in taxes than they do, but how can they be considered "spongers" when they pay most of the taxes that are paid?

The rich are rich because
1. markets are imperfect - there is a chronic lack of competition
2. they use the infrastructure financed by everybody, even the poorest (value added tax...). Take a rich man and invite him to make a fortune in North Korea, or Democratic Republic of Congo...

[anunitu]

I like your new avatar Bill

[Bill Cravener]

Hi anunitu,

I came to that conclusion after Newt Gingrich appears to be the new GOP front runner and that he is agreeing to a debate held by of all people Donald Trump. The GOP has indeed gone batshit crazy!! :tdown

[anunitu]

All that Trump brings to this is Bat shit crazy reality show drama.

[hutch--]

I read this article today in the OZ press.

Rich v Poor: There will be blood

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/opinion/blogs/blunt-instrument/rich-v-poor-there-will-be-blood-20111208-1ojzp.html

it is an interesting analysis in that it addresses a precedent from history and draws parallels to the current situation in the western countries where the rich are getting richer and doing it at the expense of the poor.

[Bill Cravener]

Good read! I found some of the comments to the article quite eye opening. One in particular struck me which pretty much sums up the current state of affairs here in the US.

"There comes a tipping point when the accumulation of wealth cannot be stopped even though the process that allows that accumulation will ultimately result in social degradation and blood in the streets. There comes a moment when the wealthy utterly control the mechanisms of government, which they use to extract even greater wealth from the economy. . . The American population is being transformed into peasants that work hard and die young while owning less and less. The de facto American aristocracy has no incentive to change a thing. . ."

[dedndave]

well - they do have an incentive, if they are wise enough to see it
that is - if things don't change, they'll be target practice for some poor guy with an AK

problem is - they are not wise enough
they are "individualists" and do not think as a collective
their attitude is "fuck you, i got mine"
they are not willing to make the changes necessary to prevent their own demise

our economy is a house of cards
the foundation is the working man
if things keep going as they are, the house must eventually collapse