I personally don't think the average person (me included) has the skills
necessary to build a PC from scratch. There are lots of sites advertising
tutorials on building PCs. But how do you know the information is not
from 5 to 10 years old? As far as I know there are no books available
like "Build Your Own PC for Dummies 2007".
Yes I have replaced floppy drives, CD drives, HD drives, added memory
and modem cards but I think this is a long way from qualifying me to
assemble a PC. For starters which one of the 50,000 cases should I
get or the 50,000 motherboards. Already I am lost.
I know Dell's prices are out of line. I think if I got into this the mistakes
I would make would wind up costing me more than buying one from Dell.
Regards,
JPS
"I personally don't think the average person (me included)
has the skills necessary to build a PC from scratch."
It is wrong or may it is true now but will be false tomorrow...
If you don't start now you never will do it and always will spend
money in the future for stupid things
(for example: to mount new heatsink with CPU fan
or to add more memory, etc)
So, MASM forum can help you to build desktop PC from scratch.
Example: If you tell to me what kind of CPU you want
I can create full parts specification for you
and to answer your questions after that
Hence, don't worry because everyone can do it when he/she starts :lol
Regards,
Lingo
Hi Lingo,
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Here is the machine I have in mind:
Intel Pentium 4 3.00 ghz
128mb graphics card - no integrated stuff
Mini-Tower
Memory 1GB
48x/32x CD-RW/DVD Combo Drive
80 gb SATA hard drive 7200 rpm
3.5 inch 1.44 MB floppy drive
internal business speaker
There are probably other things that I need
such as Ethernet ports
port for uploading pictures from a Kodak camera
printer port
port for connecting to a satellite reciever to program it
Regards,
JPS
QuoteI know Dell's prices are out of line.
Out of line how? Within my experience, building your own system from
quality components will end up costing far more than an equivalent Dell system, even if you place no value on your labor. Even if you used the cheapest components you could find, you might still be unable to match the Dell price. While some of the cheapest components available are OK, some are total junk, that in some cases were rejected by one of the OEMs, and finding out which is which is a laborious, time consuming, and sometimes expensive process. Build your own system to get exactly what you want, including components that are too recent to be used in a production system, but don't kid yourself about saving money.
Jack,
I have recently built two machines of similar spec to what you have in mind except for much larger disk rives and more memory. The tail end PIVs (EM64T) are very cheap now and if you are careful you can get good quality stuff for them at reasonable prices now that core2 Duo processors are taking over. On both boxes I use GIGABYTE boards of the COMBO type as they take either of 2 types oif memory and either AGP*8 or PCI express video cards.
They come with gigabit ethernet onboard and if you are not fussy you can use the built in sound as well. Just see if your older box has anything worth using in it as it may save you some money. The "good" size for a hard disk these days is 320 gig in terms of price per gigabyte. Unless you want otherwise you should be able to use your existing monitor, keyboard, mouse and printer.
Be careful when comparing what you build to what Dell or Gateway and the others offer. Look at the specs carefully. I always build my own PCs but, when I needed a faster box, Dell offered one that was cheap and right in line with what I wanted. I figured that later on I could add on a graphics card for whatever reasons that was (don't recall). Found out several months later that the thing didn't even have an AGP card slot for that.
I read that sometimes the onboard items cause problems later for those trying to add graphics or audio boards later.
It sounds like the problem, in your case, is what to choose and not how to put it together. Once you've built one, you can build them all.
Systems from the big OEMs are generally not a good choice if you plan on doing major upgrades because they use too many special components. Within my experience, Dell systems consist mostly of special components. IIRC at one time even the memory was special. I have been building my own systems for personal use for a long time, but for a business system that will be used essentially as equipped, Dell is the only way to fly IMO.
shankle,
The guys are right but I think
you need more practical advise...
So, please help me with your choice: :lol
Step1:
Intel Pentium 4 630, 3.0 GHz (BX80547PG3000F) Processor
$90
My CPU is Intel Pentium 4 660, 3.6 GHz
Step2:
Case -
(It is my case) with 3 fans 120mm only
Gigabyte 3D Aurora Black Aluminum ATX Full-Tower Case with Front USB, FireWire and Audio Ports
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=1538603&sku=G452-4002
but it is my prefered case (with 7 fans 120mm) :
NZXT Zero Black Aluminum ATX Full-Tower Case with Front USB, FireWire and Audio Ports
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2539642&CatId=1864
The same price!
Step3:
CPU Heatsink & Fan
Zalman CNPS9700 LED Heatsink & Fan
$75
http://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l3/g40/c14/s52/list/p2/Air_Cooling-CPU_HeatsinksCoolers-Socket_775-Page2.html?o=title_az
It is my CPU Heatsink & Fan too...
Step4:
Mobo-
Asus P5B Intel Socket 775 ATX Motherboard / Audio / PCI Express / Gigabit LAN / S/PDIF / USB 2.0 / Serial ATA / RAID
$130
My mobo is:
ASUS P5B Deluxe/WiFi-AP LGA 775 Intel P965 Express ATX Intel Motherboard
A big problem with mini-case and included with CPU Intel heatsink & fan:
This kind of CPU is very hot and needs other heatsink & fan (intel heatsink & fan do nothing)
When I used my CPU with included Intel heatsink & fan in my old PC mini-case
my temperature was non loaded -> 40C mobo and 55C CPU
loaded -> 42C mobo and 82C CPU and CPU has died
I changed Intel heatsink & fan with Zalman CNPS9700 LED Heatsink & Fan
and mount all in new bigger and well ventilated PC case with 3 biggest fans (120mm)
Gigabyte 3D Aurora Black Aluminum ATX Full-Tower Case with Front USB, FireWire and Audio Ports
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=1538603&sku=G452-4002
The result is: I overclocked my mobo with 10% and now my 3.60Ghz CPU running at 4GHz
my temperatures for XP are: non loaded -> 35C mobo and 36C CPU
loaded -> 36C mobo and 60C CPU
my temperatures for Vista are: non loaded -> 36C mobo and 41C CPU
loaded -> 37C mobo and 61C CPU
If I'm not wrong Hutch has experience with the heat too...
Regards,
Lingo
First I want to thank everyone who replied to this post.
My philosophy on computers is run them until they drop or become so
obsolete that they are no longer practical. Don't spend money on an old computer.
Only minor fixes. Therefor whatever I build would most likely stay the same for years.
Thank you Lingo for the nitty-gritty details. There is no way I could make an
intelligent selection of the myriad choices of cases or heat sinks etc. I would
have to rely on the recommendation of someone like you that has used the
specific item. I think a few courses on computer assembly are what I need
before tackling something like this.
Regards,
JPS
"There is no way I could make an intelligent selection of the myriad choices of cases or heat sinks etc. I would have to rely on the recommendation of someone like you that has used the specific item."
Exactly! So, you have to do research about every element in other forums to see others' experience
Use Google and I believe you can find some reviews for every PC part too... :lol
Regards,
Lingo
I am really not into all these fans. My son doesn't overclock but he's running at 3.6ghz with one on the cpu, one on the gpu and one case fan with a cpu temp of 54C. If all these fans are needed, why doesn't every computer have them? I wonder how much heat is generated by all the fans.
http://www.masm32.com/board/index.php?topic=5657.msg42245#msg42245
and
http://www.intel.com/design/Pentium4/guides/302553.htm
Doc,
I have had similar exdperiences with late PIVs as Lingo. The last 2 I built with their standard heat sinks ran at over 60C but when I added a large copper radiator heat sink with its built in fan, it dropped to about 30C. I live where the ambient temperature in summer is over 30C and the processors run about 2 to 3C above ambient but I have never seen either go more than another couple of degrees over idle even when processing at 100% for over an hour at a time. This translates to about 35C on continuous processing for hours at a time.
As far as case fans, the larger ones are a lot quieter than the older small ones and they often come with an LED so you know they are powered up while the box is on. I personally run them full speed all the time as I don't trust sensors on mother boards but the entire bundle for being a bit noisy is a far more acceptable thermal package than a box without serious ventilation. Given that I have never used crappy mother boards, I usually get long life out of them because I am sensitive to thermal cycling killing components in a far shorter lifespan than stuff that is temperature controlled.
My main dev box which is my oldest running PIV still has those horrible noisy little case fans but I ventilate the video card with a centrifical exhaust fan, a copper radiator for the main processor and with one rebuild about 6 months ago it has been running for over 3 years with long hours daily.
hutch,
If I read that post correctly, you have two fans plus the copper radiator on the cpu. All my boxes have a fan on the cpu/heatsink and one fan on the gpu. I think one of these boxes might have a fan in the power supply and one other might have an additional case fan. So the max number of fans I have is three and the hottest of those is 50-55C.
So I understand needing three fans but I don't understand needing seven.
For normal use, I just purchase a retail box CPU, use the supplied HSF, and don't worry about it. If Intel or AMD are willing to warranty the CPU for 3 years, the HSF is probably more than adequate for normal conditions.
"For normal use, I just purchase a retail box CPU.."
"Normal use" is different for different people... :lol
Example:
Under Vista Ultimate with Windows DreamScene we have 5C more and 15% more CPU
usage just to watch nonstop movie on the screen as a desktop background
It is the price of the fun...
So, soon with the new stuff we will forget about cpu/heatsink and fans
and will talk about water cooling systems ONLY... :lol
Example:
http://www.asus.com/products4.aspx?l1=2&l2=6&l3=442&model=1565&modelmenu=1
and
http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/pages/458117.aspx
Quote from: shankle on April 06, 2007, 08:45:51 PMI personally don't think the average person (me included) has the skills necessary to build a PC from scratch.
I would not beleive this so quickly.
I would not compare you to the 'average person' in the first place. The 'average person' has never been inside their box. Let alone, inside a program. I am sure you could put a system together from what you have said. Same rules as changing components, except you change all of them at once and in a decent order.
Even the 'average person' can do well by being an informed shopper. And seeking guidance with his purchase.
The buy versus build arguement boils down to support and warranty. At least with a Dell, you get step by step support until it runs out of warranty. :eek
Anyway, I have worked on an IBM assembly line. High School grads do just fine putting them together. It's the trouble shooting people that earn their money. :lol
Regards, P1 :8)
The thing to remember about fans is with today's high speed CPU's and what not combined with the need to maintain a small package (HDs for example), maintaining a temperature that is BELOW the spec. is important. The reason for this is because heat causes the components to break down over time. Someone, in his infinite wisdom, has decided what the normal life expectancy of a system is. With that base, it is easy to calculate the heat degradation factor so as to come up with the temperature it should run at. The problem here is that a lot of people want their systems to last longer so the best thing to do is add more fans.
I agree with Lingo whole-heartedly for the reasons stated above.
Paul
shankle.
Here is a proof about my Zalman heatsink and fan:
When I overclocked with 17%
it works under Vista with CPU clock - 4220MHz (original 3600Mhz)
and non-load temperature - CPU 48C and mobo 38C
full load temperature - CPU 75C and mobo 40C
(see attachment)
When I overclocked with 25% Vista works
but I can't pass the CPU stress test from Everest Ultimate program
Hence, to pass it needs water cooling system.... :lol
Ok, if I want to buy water cooling system in the future
I will mount it without any troubles in my current PC case
because it has such option by default :lol
But what about additional power about it?
No, problem because I have
OCZ GameXStream 850W SLI ATX 12V Ver 2.2
(with 120mm big fan) Power Supply too. :lol
Regards,
Lingo
[attachment deleted by admin]
Lingo,
Proof of what? It is well established that CPU temperature increases with clock speed and load. You seem to be implying that an increase in cooling capacity will guarantee stable operation at a higher clock speed. It should be obvious to you that it will not. In previous posts you have essentially stated that the Intel supplied HSF for the Retail Box processors are inadequate. This is unlikely to be so. It's much more likely that the failure was due to unusual conditions inside your case and/or operating the CPU outside the Intel specs. You are an extremist -- most users are not. Most users do not operate their CPU outside the specs. Most users expect a system to be reliable and reasonably quiet.
I have no reason to be overclocked permanently
because my PC is fast enough for me...
Proof: See my Windows Experience Index from attachment :lol
I'm curious to see your index.... :lol
I played with Everest Ultimate and ASUS options
just to test my new Zalman heatsink&fan
"Most users expect a system to be reliable and reasonably quiet"
Me too and my new Zalman is more quiet than my Intel heatsink&fan
The secret is in the radius of the fans and their rotating speed
The small Intel fan with big speed is loud and it's cheap heatsink is inefficient too..
I use just half power of my Zalman's fan too.. :lol
[attachment deleted by admin]
It probably has a bit to do with where you live, in Sydney you get ambient temperatures up to 40C in the summer and the reason why I have gone into overkill mode with processor cooling is that its cheap enough and very reliable apart from being a pig to put together but the result I am after is very little temperature rise above ambient temperature.
I tend to get about 2 to 3 degress centigrade over ambient which means that even on a stinking hot 40C day the processor runs at 43 or 44 degrees C which is acceptable. I used to get the effect with my older dev PIV where if I was running it at 100% in my room with the blower heater on the processor would rise over the trigger temperature of 55C and start to squark teperature warnings at me. The heatsink fixed that problem very quickly. With the two new PIVs, both ran out of the box at something like 65C on idle so I though "No way Jose" and heatsinked them both as well.
Idle temperature dropped to about 27C in both new PIVs. As far as noise, my old dev box has 3 case fans (the noisy crappy little ones), a video card extractor fan (cost peanuts) a rubber isolated processor heatsink fan in push mode, a large powersupply fan and a much larger exhaust fan behind the 4 HDDs and YES its noisy but who cares, I am used to it but the box has been running for over 3 years with long hours and is still super reliable.
Greetings,
On the original topic, I always build my own boxes. For me it isn't about price so much, but as a hobby too. The obvious drawback to building your own is that you have noone but yourself to complain to when something goes wrong.
I'm sure everyone here knows this, but I love to say it: eMachines are the spawn of satan.
Regards,
Tim
My cheap brother has three eMachines for years but has not had any problems with them.