I have been playing with Windows 8 Developer Preview for about a week now and I just don't get it. Does MS really believe that Windows 8 Metro which they hope will radically change how operating systems work be accepted by the worlds masses? I do not believe so. Even in the tablet market I think MS is offering too little, too late. Unless MS makes it more PC friendly I think it will be another Microsoft OS dud.
I've read many articles about the new Windows 8 face and several company watchers have wondered about the applicability of the Metro tiled interface on anything other than a tablet. Microsoft isn't so sure about it either it is now stating. I read where some MS officials have suggested that there may be some real changes on the Windows 8 usability front for those who prefer a keyboard and mouse. There better be if they want to sale it!
Some reassessment may be taking place because while the competition with tablets may be intense that is not the same for PC's. Forbes magazine made the statement that Windows 8 is "Dead Before Arrival". The research firm IDC told Computerworld this week; "Windows 8 will be largely irrelevant to the users of traditional PCs, and we expect effectively no upgrade activity from Windows 7 to Windows 8 in that form factor". Will business consider using Windows 8 for their fleet of PCs once that new operating system is released? Again I do not believe so.
In an IDC report on 'Top 10 system software prediction for 2012', the potential success of Windows 8 was given a poor evaluation by the global market research company. IDC pointed out that Windows 8's launch will be "largely irrelevant" for PC users and it might not capture the potential market MS seeks. IDC foresees that many enterprise users would also be a stumbling block. It is because Windows 8 looks very unfamiliar to a company's traditional work environment. The additional education to accustom corporate users to Windows 8's Metro interface would be necessary. According to IDC MS looks like it's trying to offer the best of both worlds for tablet and PC users and the end result will be desktop and laptop users seeing no benefit in upgrading to Windows 8 from a previous version.
Will the average Windows PC user jump to Windows 8 next year or snub the new OS as a platform geared more for mobile devices? Oh indeed, I do believe snub is the word here. Since the release of the Windows 8 Developer Preview in September MS has been battered by criticism from desktop users over the new Metro interface. In addition to those who just don't like the new look and feel (me included) many have complained that the touch based UI simply sucks when using a mouse and keyboard. The IDC believes MS's success with Windows 8 on tablets will be disappointing during 2012 and if it does not change some of its philosophy in how it is approaching the mobile market "it will not be successful in the longer term".
:tdown :tdown :tdown :tdown
i already don't like it :P
but - it is really hard to predict how the market will react
i thought that vista would never get off the ground
and, while it had it's problems, a lot of people wound up with it - some even like it
of course, MS tends to jam it down your throat
you can't buy a new computer with the old OS
this accounts for some of vista's success
but - it is the scary part of using windows, too
when they stop supporting windows 7....
well - they'll be on windows 10, by then :red
Win7 will be supported well past Windows 10, Windows 8 will be released in 2012, Windows 9 is in development and is rumoured to be targeted for a November 2014 release. Windows 9, may see the beginnings of a managed OS from the HAL upwards, with the recent onslaught of information from Microsoft development about Midori it seems like a good bet. Windows 8 is the first salvo in the managed OS war, with the top level OS almost completely devoid of unmanaged access how long before another OS layer falls into the .NET/Sing# void. Talking with a few insiders I know there doesn't seem to be a threat to our programming except that we should "get in the habit of writing manifests", unmanaged code will require manifests though likely there will be a "default" one for most applications (sort of a compatibility mode), however, it is unlikely that any new features will be exposed to the unmanaged API.
I know that I sound a bit like a broken record on this but the more I examine the Win7 and Win8 headers the more I see a departure from the old philosophy at Microsoft to make the API as accessible to as many programming platforms as possible. Even as recently as Vista there seemed to be at least a token effort to expose interop layers for much of the managed interfaces. Windows 8 doesn't even try to hide the fact that Microsoft is no longer interested in the unmanaged world, it presents too many security risks that are too widely distributed to properly contain, with managed code you have only to change the JIT engine to patch a hole since all requests have to be made through it. Funniest thing I saw was a job offer by a developer looking for someone to do low level programming, C# and JAVA were required, C would be an asset though unnecessary, assembly wasn't even mentioned.
Ofcourse, we will eventually have someone like Iczelion figure out how we can continue to use assembly in the new managed world, they can't keep us down forever and we're not going anywhere.
This time around I think Microsoft has truely lost their minds. Metro just may be the brick that sinks its majority rule in the PC market.
Microsoft – Too Little Too Late for Windows 8? (http://dailyscene.com/microsoft-too-little-too-late-for-windows-8-tech/)
Why Windows 8 might Kill Microsoft (http://pcunix.hubpages.com/hub/Why-Windows-8-might-Kill-Microsoft)
Will Windows 8 Bomb? (http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2011/12/06/will-windows-8-bomb.aspx)
The Serious Flaw with Win 8 and Metro (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2393269,00.asp)
Windows 8 Metro: Microsoft needs to let users opt-out (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/perlow/windows-8-metro-microsoft-needs-to-let-users-opt-out/19307)
Windows 8 Adoption Predictions: Bad Times Ahead (http://blogs.cio.com/operating-systems/16684/windows-8-adoption-predictions-bad-times-ahead)
5 deal-breaking flaws in Windows 8 (http://www.extremetech.com/computing/96249-5-deal-breaking-flaws-in-windows-8)
Windows 8: A bad bet (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/btl/windows-8-a-bad-bet/61455)
From the developer community:
Windows 8 Developer Preview - CodeProject® (http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/302401/Windows-8-Developer-Preview)
QuoteMicrosoft seems to be stuck in the clouds and the web, they seem to be trying to push everyone into mobile device mode of working. They also seem to be turning their back on where they came from (just plain Windows) and introducing more layers and code compounded. It also seems like the Windows Media people have taken over the OS UI Building now.
If they market Widows 8 as is for the desktop/laptop, it will be a bigger disaster than Windows ME.
Win 8 Preview II - CodeProject® (http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/302400/Win-8-Preview-II)
QuoteSo to conclude, if I want to play with this preview any further, then I had better start learning HTML. Again, WPF and Expression Blend 5.
From the looks of it, I won't be running Windows 8 on any of my systems besides the preview version, even though they did show a marked performance gain.
And that's from a VB.NET guy !
I am pretty much of the view that the day Microsoft let go of Desktop Windows is the day they are finished. Vista was a big enough disaster that they just scraped through with after launching Win7, maybe someone at Microsoft secretly work for Apple ?
I know so many people who were API experts who just gave up in disgust and started writing HTML, JAVA and the like so they were no longer dependent on Windows to earn a living and the general development market no longer trust Microsoft after having been messed around for years with musical chairs in code systems, documentation and dirty tricks.
It seems to be a left over philosophy that they can just keep trashing their existing user base because there will always be another one coming up but with the rise of gadgetry like iPhones and so on, it ain't going that way any longer. The dark horse is Android which come at the right price and enough companies are picking it up and developing hardware for it.
Probably what Microsoft need to do is consolidate their PC market and try and make happy customers instead of trying to take over the world. Ugly reality is a good teacher here but one can only wonder if Microsoft can learn the lesson.
I wonder whether the departure of Bill has made a difference? He stopped full-time in 2006 to concentrate on his foundation, maybe the ones left (like Ballmer) are getting lost.
Say what you want about Bill but he seemed to be pretty focussed, now MS are all over the place. I couldn't wait to get win7 but will stay away from win8 if it's like the preview.
Maybe we should wait for the official beta in a couple of months. Developer preview was to get info about the programming side, if we're lucky MS will take note :bdg
Hi Edgar, Steve, sinsi,
I must admit I like the idea of using HTML5/JS/CSS to create Windows 8 Metro style apps seeing as I do have some talent in those markup languages but this Metro look though it may be fine for tablets or handhelds will never go over with PC users. That is unless MS offers a means of booting directly to the desktop that we have for two decades now come to believe in. If there was ever a fitting position for the phrase "shoot oneself in the foot", this is the one. What are they thinking? Do they honestly believe that their future success is in the greasy sliding fingers of handhelds?
Looks like when MS have to compete on an even field, they're fairly useless at it... But we all knew that anyway.
The should rather push the PC market as tablets still will not have the power of PCs for a longgggg time.
:8)
Well, I think that the problem is that the Metro UI doesn't adapt well to desktops and laptops. About a year ago I got rid of my iPhone and switched to a Windows phone and I have to admit that I like the Windows phone a lot better. As far as a phone is concerned Windows Phone 7.5 is excellent, better than an iPhone with page after page of icons and easily beats out Android. However, I wouldn't want to see it on my laptop or desktop, I have Win7-x64 on both and I'm not likely to change that for Win8 since I can't exploit most of the new features with my current system and I'm quite happy with it the way it is.
I agree with Donkey, the Metro UI is great for phones and tablets, but not for desktops and laptops. I love my Windows Phone, I like my Windows 7 too. I think they should separate the desktop/laptop and phone/tablet operating systems and develop them separately. Combining them was a bad idea.
I stand corrected :P
I don't have a win-phone so wouldn't have an idea.. but nothing like stirring the pot to discover the brew :green2
I'll look at that win-phone.. but I'm really 'allergic' to high level stuff.. :lol
Well I tried the Windows 8 developer preview and like many others I can't see metro making much of a splash on the desktop, to me it seemed like Windows 7 with some tacked on fullscreen web interface where you couldn't even shut down the apps. That said I don't subscribe to the notion that this will somehow be a disaster for Microsoft. They own the home desktop market and will continue to do so, hell not even the dud that was Vista was more than a little speedbump. Apple's with their OSX would be the only competitor with enough financial backing to potentially compete on the desktop but even they seem to have given up and is now focusing on laptops/phones/pads.
Only problem Microsoft may have is the enterprise sector where there seems to be no reason to upgrade to Windows 8 (unlike for home users who will get it when they buy a new computer), still I don't know how much of an impact Windows 7 has had in the enterprise (at work we've been Linux only for quite some time due to our customers being on Linux these days).
As for personal preference, for me Windows 2000 remains my favourite version of Windows (or any OS for that matter), same goes for Visual Studio 2003 for development.
Quote from: sinsi on December 27, 2011, 09:38:01 AM
I wonder whether the departure of Bill has made a difference? He stopped full-time in 2006 to concentrate on his foundation, maybe the ones left (like Ballmer) are getting lost.
Say what you want about Bill but he seemed to be pretty focussed, now MS are all over the place. I couldn't wait to get win7 but will stay away from win8 if it's like the preview.
I think you're right, sinsi. Bill started out as a programmer, Ballmer's whole career is as a marketing/management droid. To me that says it all.
I really liked XP, especially from SP2 on. I skipped Vista, and now have 64-bit Win7 as my main OS and I love it. What I've seen of Metro doesn't interest me at all.
As for Microsoft not wanting to deal with the security issues of native code (I hate the term "unmanaged", it sounds more like marketing-speak than an actual difference in technology), non-Microsoft systems seem to be finding ways to deal with it without forcing everything up another layer of abstraction.
Windows XP Still Dominates the Desktop (http://hothardware.com/News/Windows-XP-Still-Dominates-the-Desktop-Whats-the-Hold-Up/)
Why Windows XP is Still the Dominant Operating System (http://dissention.wordpress.com/2011/10/26/why-windows-xp-is-still-the-dominant-operating-system/)
Metro may go the way of KDE.
KDE's Plasma desktop lets you switch between desktop and tablet mode.
Maybe I shouldn't have typed that, now MS's spider bot will see that and push the code into the next beta.
I for one can't wait till tablets are dead.
Probably the most useless device concieved. I don't see the difference between them and iPhones other than size. Neither could be used for any actual development or production. When I need to "do" something how can I do it on a tablet/smartphone ?
Other than facebook (which seems to be what everything is designed for now) all you can do is watch video, listen to music or throw birds at pigs.
Could I really finish a radio shecmatic with an iPhone or type a dissertation on a tablet ? How about code for an embedded Freescale system ? Upload it too ? Paint like Bob Ross, I saw that in one of iPads commercials, there is no way it can be done. If you watch closely the brush actually used by the actor is too big and the wrong color for the painting.
PC's are dead RIP 2011
So much for getting shit done. Oooo is there an app for wiping my ass ? Maybe I could actually get some use out of it after all.
Well, after a month or so playing with Windows 8 I have to say it's annoying, frustrating and virtually unuseable. Navigating your PC is counter-intuitive, having to hit ctrl-alt-del in order to get a shut-down option is just stupid and though Metro seems to work well on a smart-phone, on a general purpose PC it's seriously flawed. The fact is that I will not go out and buy a touch screen because I'm not likely to hold it in my hand and stabbing at it across the desk I'm more ikely use a fist than a finger after knocking the monitor over 6 times a day trying to select something. The spread to zoom is fine for tablets and phones but seriously, it even looks awkward on CNN where they do it every election. The new "metro" start menu is useless, I didn't bother to find out how to add anything to it though from my experience with the rest of the OS I think I would rather a trip to the dentist than attempt to accomplish what should be a simple task. Dialogs kept disappearing as soon as you would select something, for example when setting up my network, I would select a drop-down combo and the dialog would disappear leaving the drop-down stranded on the desktop. It continually drops computers from its network list, sometimes in the middle of an operation, though this might be just an evaluation edition problem. Finally, the context menus which have been a part of the Windows GUI standard since the start are now missing items that have been there since Windows 3.x, I have no examples since I was too frustrated to make any more notes by that time.
At any rate my rating for Windows 8 and Metro:
:tdown :tdown :tdown :tdown :tdown
5 thumbs down out of 2.
Edgar
Win 8, yes it will be fun to play with except when it comes down to doing any real work with it. Here's a good yet brief read on Win 8 in regards to business use. I do not believe it will ever sell in the business world. :tdown
QuoteThe question is what the new OS brings that's new or better than what we already have. This was the question we were led to expect would be answered today. The half-heartedness of the answer suggests that, ominously for Windows 8, Microsoft doesn't have an enterprise-friendly ace up its sleeve.
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/2012/03/06/windows-8-what-benefits-for-business/
Windows 8 Consumer Preview
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/consumer-preview
Released on February 29, 2012
Look how hard it has been for MS to move people from XP to Windows 7 Aero. Now how do you think folks will take to a version of Windows that doesn't know what it wants to be when it grows up?
When you think of the history of Windows (perhaps with Windows 8 they should change the name to Metro 1) Microsoft's Windows versions beginning with Windows 3.0 went something like this: Windows 95 (a great improvement!), Windows 98 (wasn't worth the upgrade from 95), Windows 2000 (a terrific improvement and still used by small businesses), Windows ME (a total and complete dud), Windows XP (very good OS and still very popular), Windows Vista (oh boy, what the hell happened?), Windows 7 (wow, I think they may have finally gotten it right!), Windows 8 (what the phuk, have they completely lost their minds this time?).
So it goes something like this;
Windows 95: :thumbu
Windows 98: :tdown
Windows 2000: :thumbu
Windows ME: :tdown
Windows XP: :thumbu
Windows Vista: :tdown
Windows 7: :thumbu
Windows 8: Yep, you guessed it! :tdown :tdown :tdown :tdown
There's a quote I read somewhere that said it best; "Trying to make everybody happy will make nobody happy."
Hi Bill,
About your comments, I agree with you 100% :U
Quote from: Bill Cravener on March 18, 2012, 09:12:47 AMThere's a quote I read somewhere that said it best; "Trying to make everybody happy will make nobody happy."
I think this is more a case of trying to make their shareholders happy. Current OS trends show a diminishing market share for the Windows desktop. Windows is losing ground (around 3% in the last year to ~85%), this is a disturbing trend for Microsoft, the rise of MacOS and iOS and the domination of the tablet market by Apple has them looking forward to a steady decline. Microsoft's great hope is that once Windows 8 is firmly entrenched in the PC and Laptop market consumers will select it as the OS of choice for embedded devices as well. Its a matter of where they see the computer market in the next ten years, not the last ten years (though I personally believe they have overestimated the long term popularity of tablets). Microsoft is just trying to position itself for what it sees as the market of the future and to finally make some headway in those markets where it has been disastrously inept (tablets and smart phones).
Quote from: donkey on March 18, 2012, 10:20:12 AMMicrosoft's great hope is that once Windows 8 is firmly entrenched in the PC and Laptop market consumers will select it as the OS of choice for embedded devices as well.
I am afraid Microsoft's logic is the other way round: "Try using this computer, it's so easy, it works exactly like your phone!".
Remember computer users are a minority...
Bill - you forgot OS/2 and windows NT(4) :bg
and - win98 wasn't so bad
ME and vista sucked rox - lol
Quote from: jj2007 on March 18, 2012, 02:01:46 PM
I am afraid Microsoft's logic is the other way round: "Try using this computer, it's so easy, it works exactly like your phone!".
Remember computer users are a minority...
Not really, Microsoft is getting killed in the embedded market, they need something to push phone and tablet users toward their OSes and away from Apple and Android. Not an easy task as is evident with WP7's mediocre sales performance.
I really can see the idea of making the win8 two separate forks in development for different hardware.
Least we forget a very large chunk of Microsoft's clientele involves the business world. Look at the facts, businesses haven't traded in their XP machines for Vista in droves nor have they flocked to Windows 7. Not only would moving to Vista or Windows 7 require hardware upgrades for many businesses a good many proprietary applications would have to be redesigned in order to work. It's certain that a change to Windows 8 could have similar repercussions. And let's not forget the costs in retraining employees how to use the new Metro 1 OS. Microsoft has a very tough job ahead of itself in convincing people and businesses to move to Windows 8. When you think about it they have to beat back three threats all at the same time, that being the iPad, the Mac, and the potential indifference among businesses.
I've also read that there is a chance that neither Chrome, Firefox nor other browsers will be allowed to run on Windows 8 tablets. Gregg Keizer of Computeworld notes that Firefox will use the existing Gecko libraries to build the Metro version of Firefox, but he warns that the browser will not run on Windows Arm.
I think MS is giving too much importance to the tablet market and little to who made them the great empire they are today, that being the business and personal PC markets. As I quoted they are trying to please everyone but in the end they may (as they have done in the past) disappoint everyone.
Here's a good read. Be sure and watch the video of Chris Pirillo's dad trying to use Windows 8 on a desktop.
http://www.lockergnome.com/windows/2012/03/15/why-cant-microsoft-afford-a-failure-with-windows-8/
Dave, Windows 98 sucked! And I was thinking Windows 2000 and NT4 as pretty much the same likeable beasts. :bg
Win98 was in my memory a reboot every few hours thing,with Win2000 it can be reboot every few days,and I imagine XP has a better record as to having to reboot.
"They trying to drive me to Mac?" LMFAO!
They got Win 7 right, now they want to undo all that? 7 is very stable and I will be sticking with it for many years to come.
Quote from: Bill Cravener on March 18, 2012, 04:05:25 PM
I think MS is giving too much importance to the tablet market and little to who made them the great empire they are today, that being the business and personal PC markets. As I quoted they are trying to please everyone but in the end they may (as they have done in the past) disappoint everyone.
Even the article you posted gives a little too much importance to them :bg
Quote84% of companies polled plan to buy tablets in the next quarter.
The article he was referring to actually said:
QuoteA total of 84pc of companies planning to buy tablets next quarter now say they'll purchase iPads
Later it says:
QuoteThe ChangeWave Research survey of 1,604 business IT buyers also revealed that 22pc of companies will be buying tablet computers for their employees during Q2 2012.
Explain to me how a tablet is more productive than a keyboard and monitor? Maybe billion dollar companies can go out and buy all new hardware, but not everyone will.
Windows 98 was good for the time and for what it was intended to do. For people who still used DOS applications it was in many respects better than DOS. And if everything was right, hardware, installation, configuration, drivers, and applications, you could run it for weeks without a reboot.
yah - i had win98 pretty well mastered, as far as configuring it went - i had no troubles with it
winME - you had some preset limit as to how many times you could install or uninstall programs
once you hit that limit, it was time to start from scratch, because problems starting popping up - lol
when i look at win8, i am reminded of movies like Avatar, Minority Report, or the hover-port displays in the Matrix movies
i can see where ms is trying to go - fancy displays that allow you to use your hand or fingers like a magic wand to control everything
but - i don't think they've thought things through very well
what looks cool in a movie may not really be all that practical
transparent displays - looks cool - but how annoying would it be to have distractions from the background
and certainly, what is practical on a tablet may not be practical on a desktop
as for ms not controlling the tablet market - i say, great !
time to let someone else make some decisions for a while - lol
the overall industry becomes stagnant when one company calls all the shots
diversity is where new stuff comes from
The link I posted earlier says it all:
QuoteThe company (Microsoft) is clearly stuck between a rock and hard place, but they're handling their situation with the "Consumer Preview" about as poorly as it could be handled. It's smart to move the ball forward, but you can't keep your foot behind the line of scrimmage. It's an engineer's mentality, and the consumer world is 99% full of non-engineers who have (or SHOULD have) little-to-no patience for sub-standard experiences.
We so often forget that the average user is not one of us. That is to say knowledgeable in the functioning of the OS. Companies will not spend the time or expense to retrain. And if you watched the video from my link posted earlier you can see the confusion the new Metro UI will cause the average person be it at home or at the office.
Boy how I wish I could place a bet on the win or loss of MS's move towards the Win 8 Metro direction because I'm quite certain it will be a loser and if I could just place a bet on it flopping I know I'd be a winner! If MS is out to push business towards the Mac they are moving in the right direction!
This what the 'Metro' word does to a good product :bdg
(http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2011/08/04/1226108/615429-shane-warne.jpg)
Quote from: Gunner on March 18, 2012, 05:42:00 PM
Explain to me how a tablet is more productive than a keyboard and monitor? Maybe billion dollar companies can go out and buy all new hardware, but not everyone will.
It's all marketing hype which works very well. The technically challenged portion of the population are just suckers for this.
It's about image, upgrading, and 'one upmanship'... essentially my toy is better/bigger than yours which is nothing more than compensation for smaller things that they cannot change. :bg
Apple have done a good job (what a pun, although it's a bit dead now) with this and their other products - Branding.
A tablet is definitely not more productive than a keyboard and monitor.
A tablet is really handy for lightweight tasks like browsing the web, looking at photos and videos, listening to music, reading ebooks, running apps etc. while lounging around on the couch or the recliner.
When I find myself getting exasperated with what I am trying to do on the tablet, I know it is time to move to the PC.
This brings to mind a question about using a phone to surf the web. Does said phone have a firewall or something to keep your phone from turning into an memory eating ad player.
VOTE: WILL YOU UPGRADE TO WINDOWS 8? (http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/polls/vote/)
http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive/2012/04/16/announcing-the-windows-8-editions.aspx
I will get it, and I will use it, I am sure. You need to keep up with stuff.
I am just hoping for a last minute "OK, we'll ket you disable Metro" from Microsoft.
No chance, folks - I will stick with Windows RG (http://windowsreallygoodedition.com/) :U
Quote from: Bill Cravener on April 17, 2012, 09:35:41 AM
VOTE: WILL YOU UPGRADE TO WINDOWS 8? (http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/polls/vote/)
I see there have been over 1500 votes at the PC Advisor site already and though it's yet to be released an interest in Win 8 isn't looking very promising. :tdown
Voting page was moved. New voting link page: http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/polls/3351321/will-you-upgrade-to-windows-8/
Over 2400 votes, doesn't look good for Win 8. :tdown
Canonical had done the similar thing on Ubuntu Linux: Unity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_(user_interface)).
There are Ubuntu Linux users who don't like Unity (good for tablets/touch-screen devices, but not for desktops).
So they prefer KDE 4 or GNOME classic or whatever.
But there are also people who like it (younger ones?).
Probably the same thing also applies to Metro UI.
:toothy
Rather avoid the friviolities of 'fashion' and stick with something that works..
If you follow fashion it'll eat you alive... so just avoid it
Quote from: vanjast on April 26, 2012, 08:35:40 PM
Rather avoid the friviolities of 'fashion' and stick with something that works..
If you follow fashion it'll eat you alive... so just avoid it
To some people, fashion is not fashion it is a way of living. Being like the rest is to many the only way of living. :naughty: However, I agree. Fashion is bad in many ways.
Latest Windows 8 build reveals minimalistic desktop UI...
For more info click here (http://www.engadget.com/2012/05/18/microsoft-reveals-new-windows-8-desktop-ui/).