http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2011/06/html5-centric-windows-8-leaves-microsoft-developers-horrified.ars
QuoteWhen Microsoft gave the first public demonstration of Windows 8 a week ago, the reaction from most circles was positive. The new Windows 8 user interface looks clean, attractive, and thoughtful, and in a first for a Microsoft desktop operating system, it's finger friendly. But one aspect of the demonstration has the legions of Windows developers deeply concerned, and with good reason: they were told that all their experience, all their knowledge, and every program they have written in the past would be useless on Windows.
It is sad to see that all this previous knowledge, along with the time spent reading books and creating examples, will be going to waste. I hope you all will fare better.
:boohoo:
Backward compatibility is central to their business - throwing all of that away would be suicide.
This was more of a marketing event, not aimed at developers - more of a "look at the shiny-shiny!" So technical details were left out. But rumours and speculation are more fun :bdg
They have been steering the wrong course for years, and only a profound change is going to work at this point. Unfortunately you have chair throwing executives, unwilling to listen to reason, or hear dissenting opinion. So instead of hearing a realistic view of the situation, everyone just tells them what they want to hear.
x86 code doesn't run natively on any other CPU architectures, given the proliferation of others, a focus on x86 assembler exclusively probably isn't the best bet.
I think you'll find a lot of skill and knowledge are transferable.
Tedd : I think they are out of options, doing the same thing over-and-over isn't working. At some point the legacy becomes more of a drag, than providing the momentum to drive a new/same OS on the customer. And last week's Googolora merger is certainly a big sign about where the business is going.
I suppose with a tinge of cynicism that Microsoft have tried many things and flopped while ther cash cow, Windows, Office and a few others have kept them afloat. Vista was a disaster for them and the approach with Win7 showed some willingness to cater for a market that had rejected Vista. They will of course keep trying new things but their greatest problem is the market no longer trust them and want other solutions that are Microsoft free. The rise of gadgets is an area that Microsoft have not done so well in as those burnt by Microsoft with its desktop systems want nothing to do with them, preferring to go with Google, Apple and a few other players.
I doubt after Vista that Microsoft will try the same stunt again and I imagine their cash cow Windows and Office will be around for a long time to come. new stuff comes and goes but the known x86 has this much going for it, its widely known across the entire industry which more or less garrantees it will be catered for for a long time to come. Intel found thi when they tried to shift to a new 64 bit architecture, the market did not follow as it was heavily committed to x86. AMD jumped in and did the AMD x86-64 so Intel had to follow.
Effectively, one more Vista and they are finished so I doubt that backwards compatibility is going to disappear any time soon.
yah - they made a lot of changes to the API with win7
so far, they have done alright by maintaining as much backward compatibility as practical
if they toss out the win2k/xp API altogether, they will be opening a large hole for some other OS to come in and take over
let's face it, if we had to start from scratch, we'd probably do our best to avoid MS
From what I've read about Win 8 it will be basically two operating systems in one. The traditional desktop that looks and feels a lot like Win 7 and will continue to run traditional Windows apps and a full-screen browser interface that runs apps written in HTML5 and JavaScript.
Found a more recent post by Peter Bright on Ars Technica relating to new runtimes and stuff in win8
http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2011/06/windows-8-for-software-developers-the-longhorn-dream-reborn.ars
QuoteWindows 8 will ship with a pair of runtimes; a new .NET runtime (currently version stamped 4.5), and a native code C++ runtime (technically, COM, or a derivative thereof), named WinRT. There will be a new native user interface library, DirectUI, that builds on top of the native Direct2D and DirectWrite APIs that were introduced with Windows 7. A new version of Silverlight, apparently codenamed Jupiter, will run on top of DirectUI. WinRT and DirectUI will both be directly accessible from .NET through built-in wrappers.
WinRT provides a clean and modern API for many of the things that Win32 does presently. It will be, in many ways, a new, modern Win32. The API is designed to be easy to use from "modern" C++ (in contrast to the 25 year old, heavily C-biased design of Win32); it will also map cleanly onto .NET concepts. In Windows 8, it's unlikely that WinRT will cover everything Win32 can do—Win32 is just so expansive that modernizing it is an enormous undertaking—but I'm told that this is the ultimate, long-term objective. And WinRT is becoming more and more extensive with each new build that leaks from Redmond.
Im wondering what impact this will have for us asm developers/hobbyists in relation to the SDKs, include files and so on, will our win32 asm projects work with the new api just as easily or will there be a need to tweak some stuff so that we can call the api's?
fearless,
I'm sure we will find a way. We are assembly programmers after all? :wink
We can do anything. We're like the Justice League. :P
it's for young people - lol
us old guys don't have enough time left to learn a whole new ballgame
The Windows API is like the river, "For men may come and men may go but I go on forever."
If Microsoft want to see a MAC os take over or if the Linux guys ever get off their arse and produce a user friendly OS then Microsoft are finished, this is why the API is like the river, it will go on forever which in computer terms mans at least a few more years.
It will take a quantum shift like everybody using an Android tablet to change the situation with Microsoft, after Vista they will remain more inclined to provide what the market wants than try and push it in another direction. If Intel/Microsoft had their way we would all be using an Itanium with a new version of Windows that did not run on x86, it ain't going to happen any time soon. :bdg
Quote from: hutch-- on August 22, 2011, 02:30:21 AM
The Windows API is like the river, "For men may come and men may go but I go on forever."
If Microsoft want to see a MAC os take over or if the Linux guys ever get off their arse and produce a user friendly OS then Microsoft are finished, this is why the API is like the river, it will go on forever which in computer terms mans at least a few more years.
It will take a quantum shift like everybody using an Android tablet to change the situation with Microsoft, after Vista they will remain more inclined to provide what the market wants than try and push it in another direction. If Intel/Microsoft had their way we would all be using an Itanium with a new version of Windows that did not run on x86, it ain't going to happen any time soon. :bdg
This is why Windows will survive.
Linux/BSD will never fix their crap. They live off the the asinine archane shit they pull out of their asses.
MacOS will always be the upper class stiff lip, we aren't an OS we are an Art sort of crap.
What alternative is there ?
Airstrip One is no fun but I bet Eurasia, Eastasia and Pacifica are no better.
QuoteKey to the new Windows 8 look and feel, and instrumental to Microsoft's bid to make Windows a viable tablet operating system, are new-style full-screen "immersive" applications. Windows 8 will include new APIs for developing these applications, and here is where the problem lies. Having new APIs isn't itself a concern—there's simply never been anything like this on Windows before, so obviously the existing Windows APIs won't do the job—but what has many troubled is the way that Microsoft has said these APIs will be used. Three minutes and forty five seconds into this video, Microsoft Vice President Julie Larson-Green, in charge of the Windows Experience, briefly describes a new immersive application—a weather application—and says, specifically, that the application uses "our new developer platform, which is, uhh, it's based on HTML5 and JavaScript."
Reading this, it seems it is just another addition to the already long list of APIs.
I remember when SilverLight was launched - it was supposed to be the "best thing eva (sic)" for web development. M$ spent millions marketing it etc... but then they shelved it a couple of years ago. Same with their "Great Plains" - all hype, never really went anywhere. They still use Sage over here.
I suspect this will just be some form of UI that can be disabled if you just want a regular Windows desktop. M$ would be better to start from scratch if they were to produce a tablet OS. Trying to port an app that has already been ported and added to far too many times in its life is the worst idea they had yet.
apparently win8 is compatible for ARM processor architechture, thus MS is trying to monopolize across PC desktop and mobile handheld platforms. so you will have the same OS on your PC, and on your mobile , your tablet, and whatever other fidgets that MS can see
There is a good sneak-peak article about Windows 8 in MaximumPC magazine. Up-front it's going to look more like Windows
Phone 7 than anything else.
Quote from: Bill CravenerFrom what I've read about Win 8 it will be basically two operating systems in one. The traditional desktop that looks and feels a lot like Win 7 and will continue to run traditional Windows apps and a full-screen browser interface that runs apps written in HTML5 and JavaScript.
That is what this article said too.
[Later] Here is a link to an older article, it gives you a good idea of what Windows 8 will look like: http://www.maximumpc.com/article/windows/microsoft_announces_first_real_details_about_windows_8
And a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p92QfWOw88I
I have a Windows Phone 7 and I like it a lot, but I'm not sure if the UI is a good match for a desktop PC, it would be a good match for a tablet though. I guess they think we'll all be using tablets in a couple of years.
Personally I like high-performance desktop PCs, the only reason I have a laptop is because my daughter got a new laptop and she gave me her old one.
It's too bad M.S.I.L. doesn't resemble the language of its most popular processor. Would it hurt to just add "some" real mnemonics? Backwards compatibility won't be hurt and performance might actually match some native code.
Quote from: GregL on August 29, 2011, 12:31:31 AM
Personally I like high-performance desktop PCs, the only reason I have a laptop is because my daughter got a new laptop and she gave me her old one.
Exactly, when you need to get some *actual* work done WTF is the use of a tablet ?
Just what are you supposed to do with a tin-can POS that has no real interface, shitty apps that can't be used without a network connection and no menas to really manipulate and store your own data. You can create anything with it !
While I had been extremely attracted to Vista because the system took on a more than average feel akin to Unix perceptually and had several well thought out interfaces it had proven to be just as vulnerable as XP in many ways. Sadly, Windows 7 feels and acts much like XP and with its familiarity promotes ignorance on many levels where the system seems to be even more prone to attack in certain areas than was XP or Vista like a gift wrapped bomb.
They are getting some serious backlash due to the facts pointed out here and by others in this discussion and with the Wall Street folly costing America a sum that has yet to be defined for 3+ years or more it would come as no surprise that they have to make life altering decisions in such a drastic fashion. If they had used their heads to begin with instead of riding their laurels collecting a check and had actually strode to produce something that isn't just appealing but consumer safety oriented on the deepest levels the need for such change would have been less caustic. Parentals controls and safety mechanism need loads more than a nice UI and a sales pitch stating the existence as a selling point.
Preparation is the most critical step and is usually managed as an optional include int the headers where hacks and workarounds apply to anyone who jumps into that libarary and is proven by the insurmountable attacks that Windows Users face everyday. establishing laziness here is not difficult at any stretch of one's imagination and now the fact that preparation a true phase in any endeavor being watered down to a simple step has cost everyone let alone the consideration for its optional management at the mercy of the "experts" at large. It's quite pathetic and was forecast or prophesied to happen by all the white coat morons that weren't doing anything, but holding back evolution and development with their intrinsic over-reach agendas. The agenda has been sprung and the new agenda is damage control where the morons who see the future aren't the ones holding the bag if not the bag full of "I told you so..."
I don't even know what to think of the "powers" governing these systems with such a contemporary, pop-cultural smidgen of wisdom on how to suck up to raise the bottom line into black, but I do know what to call them and none of it is remarkable or socially acceptable in open forum; I do like my vernacular to extend past two syllables and four letters from time to time.
Where the heck have you guys been my whole life, and people have the nerve to ask me why I feel like going postal every other day. I'm surrounded by idiots and now I see you all suffer the same affliction -- finally some people with something iconic to an I.Q. -- it's very inspiring. It's no surprise as to why assembler programmers come off as eccentric, albeit it's not eccentricity but the pursuit of intelligent life; it's like we're lost in space and floating around in the seventies with a robot screaming "does not compute."
Fan-Fn-tastic!