I dont know but, when I was religous a few years ago, Im so iritated when my faith is questioned. Why do you think that was happen from science view, esp. psycology?
I was curious.
Because that is what you were told.... How you were lied to.... Don't believe science either.... This is also a false religion....
Religion Fact:
Be good to your neighbour
Do not kill
Science Fact:
E=MC2
The moon falls into the earth which in turn falls into the sun which in turn falls into the center of our galaxy....
Both rulesets Religion and Science have a binding effect on your life, neither DEFINE your life....
You will not live forever if you follow either path, you will not have your own robot army or be reincarnated in heaven with 72 virgins.... Nor really if you have any iota of intelligence would you want this....
The mind of man is not designed to understand the universe.... Only small parts of it.... Go too far in any direction and you will get lost.... What makes sense to you will be based on many general falsehoods....
we are all brainwashed, from the time we are born
our parents tell us what to believe
our schools and government tell us what to believe
that goes for religion, politics, and patriotism, as well as what is "socially acceptable"
some of the brainwashing is good - some isn't
for example, it's good to be brought up believing it is wrong to kill
it's bad to be brought up thinking republicans are good - lol
my dad is one of these "always vote republican" guys
whatever religion your parents are - you are likely to believe in strongly
if your parents are muslims and mine are christians, that means we disagree - and we don't even know why :P
Quote from: Farabi on June 01, 2011, 10:47:01 AM
Im so iritated when my faith is questioned.
As the Joker said: "Why so serious?" :P
I sometimes involved in discussions about faith with friends (some of them are agnostics/atheists).
We do it in a lighthearted way. In the end, we always agree to disagree, though.
That's it :wink
i attended a catholic school and unfortunately was forced to learn about something that rarely made any sense to me, not just catholicism but religion in general made little sense.
at the time i was seeing a lot of hypocrisy by people who went there to pray every sunday, handing all their money over to a big corrupt institution.
i'm not against anyone who practices religion though, each to their own...and no, i'm not atheist either.
i agree with oex too about science being the new religion and how we're just simply not meant to understand everything about the universe.
some people just want a meaning to life and i suppose religion fulfills that need.
I had a very similar experience as
Kernel Gaddafi, above,...almost identical, in fact. If you examine religious dogma with a rigorous logic,...it is difficult to determine the truth with certainty.
Most of our major religions were created a thousand years ago, or more, when scientific thought was quite primitive,...and, religious beliefs were an attempt to explain what we as a people experience when we observe the natural world. A belief system is assembled and through the evangelist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelism) efforts of a hierarchy of initiates, those beliefs are conveyed to populations (of fools).
Quote from: Christian BibleTherefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
What really chenged my mind was Galileo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei). As you are probably aware, Galileo was a proponent of the Copernican heliocentric model. The response of the Catholic Church was to order Galileo to stand trial on suspicion of heresy in 1633. He was excommunicated from the Church (which means that he could no longer participate in Church rituals -- this implies eternal damnation), and was forced (under penalty of death) to retract his belief in his own scientific publications.
...If you want a somewhat unconventional perspective to the whole issue of religious belief, read, Arthur C. Clarke's "Childhood's End" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood's_End)
(And, by the way, it's my ridiculous quasi-religious belief that
Peter (aka, oex)), is, in reality, a fictional character that has somehow escaped from "Childhood's End".)
Interestingly enough the Italian Catholic church did far less damage than the Spanish version. There was the less than edifying affair with Giordano Bruno being burnt in the square of the flowers but one would have to say he went out of his way to get there. I did a topic on Galileo at UNI many years ago and he did better than you may have thought, he was a buddy of one of the Popes when he was younger and received many favours but he was prone to make enemies with his mouth and it caught up with him as he got older. He was eventually sunk on an incorrect theory of the tides. The Catholic church was more inclined to believe Johanne Kepler. Galileo suffered so bady that his daughter did his penance for him but was prevented from publishing any works for the rest of his life.
His works were published after he died.
The difference between science and religion, is that Science, from the start, has always been open to questioning? and changed to the more convincing/if not unproven theory.
Religion (from what I can see) is never been open to question (maybe within it's inner circles, but not by the public at large), and religious perpetrators still threaten unbelievers (those that question) with death.
This is where science is successfull as is appeals to (wo)man's curious nature. Religion is more about controlling your mind than what science is, and in both camps there are the liars and charletons trying to conn you out of your hard earned living (cash) - You must just learn to recognise them before they take your stash.
:bg
Kind of a sticky subject religion..I follow no Abrahamic religion,those include Christian,Moslem,and Jewish. Those are the main monothiest religions. I am a follower of a Pagan tridition. Best thing I find in my Pagan path,is it allows you to pick and choose your personal set of rules,don't like a certain Goddess,then pick another from the list...Religion is a binding dogma,spiritual understanding is not a dogmatic path,but an open concideration of what life and death may or may not mean. Each to their own. Religion is NOT really spiritual, it is a set of rules to follow blindly,in hopes of cheating death.
I think the trick is to find something that doesnt fit nicely in neither category and then you know there is er.... more to life....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC73PHdQX04
One problem with religion and science is that science criticize christians based on the bible. The bible is not written by God, it is just a collection of experiences from people who claimed to have a relationship with God. The bible simply had too much sales. The Bible has little to do with God.
2. Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousnes.
The bible is written by faulty men, it does not represent truth but it represents a cognitive model of God. It is very unfortunate that christians got into the position and need to protect God based on the old book.
4.6 Billion years ago. 13.6 Billion years from now.
'nuff said.
We came from nowhere, we shall return there, one way or the other.
If there is a creator, who created the creator? If God existed, we'd all worship it and would have proof of it/their existence. Why is God always a white male? If God is so powerful, why all the wars and suffering?
I could go on... ::)
Quote from: Astro on June 05, 2011, 05:35:11 AM
4.6 Billion years ago. 13.6 Billion years from now.
'nuff said.
We came from nowhere, we shall return there, one way or the other.
If there is a creator, who created the creator? If God existed, we'd all worship it and would have proof of it/their existence. Why is God always a white male? If God is so powerful, why all the wars and suffering?
I could go on... ::)
I understand that the billions of years can confuse people but it is in no way evidence against a higher entity, it really is not. It may LOOK like it is, but if you want to be an ice cold analytic, the damn number has absolutely nothing to do and is in no way evidence against any gods.
A God could have made all of this seem this way and that way, so despite how convincing science may be, we can never use it against a God. It is impossible. When you use that number as "evidence" against gods, you are comparing God to human-like beings who is seeking to design something with efficiency, who said this world had to be designed with the same efficiency as our society is? :bg
I have always seen the humour in comparisons of the existence or non-existence of a supreme being, something like two religious practitioners advancing rival theories. I am a bit rusty here but from memory the Catholic saint Thomas Aquinas produced the "First Mover" argument about 800 years ago. It went something like this, if you regress back far enough with a backwards causal chain you will get to the first mover, that which he calls God. Now the retort is very simple, what happens if the regression is infinite ?
This is where the fun starts, by its simple semantics "infinite" can never be proven and needs to be assumed, by any other name an act of faith so the comparison here is between one act of faith and another, two rival theologians advancing rival theories. :bg
Quote from: zemtex on June 05, 2011, 03:35:39 PM
I understand that the billions of years can confuse people but it is in no way evidence against a higher entity, it really is not. It may LOOK like it is, but if you want to be an ice cold analytic, the damn number has absolutely nothing to do and is in no way evidence against any gods.
.. and no evidence for the existence of even one god. :wink
Quote from: Astro on June 05, 2011, 05:35:11 AM
Why is God always a white male? If God is so powerful, why all the wars and suffering?
I could go on... ::)
Isn't the title "God" a catch all title? Every religion prays/worships a "God" no? They just have a different name. Who said God is white? The Catholic religion? Some religions believe God is white/black/purple, or they believe it is an animal or a deity or maile or femaile...
If there is/was a God, it is a sick SOB... like you said wars and suffering... creates earthquakes, tsunamis, weather phenomenons that kill people... sickness that makes people and families suffer, bodies/minds slowly rot away... insert your bad item here... religion was created by man.... groups of people gather together because they believe in the same properties of their supreme invisible being...
Quote from: Gunner on June 05, 2011, 05:17:10 PM
Quote from: Astro on June 05, 2011, 05:35:11 AM
Why is God always a white male? If God is so powerful, why all the wars and suffering?
I could go on... ::)
Isn't the title "God" a catch all title? Every religion prays/worships a "God" no? They just have a different name. Who said God is white? The Catholic religion? Some religions believe God is white/black/purple, or they believe it is an animal or a deity or maile or femaile...
If there is/was a God, it is a sick SOB... like you said wars and suffering... creates earthquakes, tsunamis, weather phenomenons that kill people... sickness that makes people and families suffer, bodies/minds slowly rot away... insert your bad item here... religion was created by man.... groups of people gather together because they believe in the same properties of their supreme invisible being...
Society have taught you that we should live without any resistance, without troubles, without suffering, society have taught us that life should be all about luxury. This is the primary reason why "weak sissies" think that God is evil. Just because life is full of tribulation does not mean that "God" is evil
Secondly, suffering is good for us whether you want to believe it or not. A relaxed life in luxury and no resistance, no "speedbumps" in life will poison you. You get lazy, you get emo, sensitive, you get too many expectations in life, you don't know suffering, so your reaction to suffering in the world comes in the form of contempt and not in the form of compassion.
If you lean back in your chair with all your money and fake friends, you will teach yourself to respond to suffering with anger and contempt. Wealthy, prosperous and "weak" people who have never experienced suffering feel contempt for suffering and they respond with anger to it.
People who have suffered, they respond with healthy opinions, they are glad and happy. You should not despise suffering. I think that suffering can be good medicine for your "soul" or whatever you want to call it.
If god exists, I mean IF he really do exist, he is above you and you are below him. How on earth can you be above him in anything, if he do exist he is your creator, how could his ways be less than yours? I'd make a safe bet he is more knowledgeable than any of us.
It is stupidity in high class to even begin to speculate whether he is less competent than us.
1: If God does not exist, why even propose that he would be evil
2: If he exist, why speculate on his competence
We know so little, we cannot be arrogant and say that we know everything, because that is what you are saying when you claim God would be evil. "God is evil" means that you know the cause of everything that he have done and every thought he had. It is arrogance my friend. :naughty:
Be careful with the "welfare" syndrome that is stinging the population, it is poison. Sure, we do survive, but it is not good for us. We become weak people. It is a virus. Many will say that a long and healthy life should be the ultimate goal of life, that is not true. It is the moments that take our breath away that defines a rich life, it is not how long we sit and glance at a wall. :bg
zemtex,
You have reminded me of something very funny, years ago I was sitting in a pub trying to eat a Tbone steak in peace and just around the corner of the bar were two guys having a conversation. While I tried not to listen (driven by hunger) it cashed out that these two guys worked for an IT company which was just starting to fall on hard times (one of the bubbles that burst in the mid 90s) and one of them had just been shoved out the door. The less than silent suffering guy was pissing in the ear of the other guy who still worked there about how great his loss was and how he was ruined and could not maintain his lifestyle etc etc etc ....
Maybe I am cynical having grown up in the engineering trade where you were hired for what money they could make out of you and you were fired when they did not have enough work for you to do. This was normal in that trade so my thoughts on the less than silent sufferer was "Welcome to the real world". You could have titled the episode as "The fall of another Yuppie". :P
Quote from: Astro on June 05, 2011, 05:35:11 AM
If there is a creator, who created the creator? If God existed, we'd all worship it and would have proof of it/their existence. Why is God always a white male? If God is so powerful, why all the wars and suffering?
This impression of God being human, comes from Michelangelo, when he painted the Capella Sistina. In that Era, God don't have a form, so after that paint, Michellangelo get's excommunicate from church, and the pope don't have paid Michelangelo work. The art have price.
Why today peoples don't say bad things about Zeus, or druid, or muiraquitã?
I met one guy that have learned many (not to say all) religions (this guy is one of the few that can understand Aramaic) , and today this guy is atheist. In a conversation, we talked about many things, and about war too, and we have reached Babel Tower. He said that many "miracles" can be explained by science.
We all have laws(constitution), but this laws really work? While the laws are beautiful in theory, but in practice, the man that have money don't go to jail.
Religion is one form to preserve the integrity of society. Put order in chaos. The bad news is when politics and religion joins. If you say bad things about a president, you are saying implicit bad thing about God.
Quote from: mineiro on June 06, 2011, 06:35:22 PM
Religion is one form to preserve the integrity of society. Put order in chaos. The bad news is when politics and religion joins. If you say bad things about a president, you are saying implicit bad thing about God.
If you use phrases like "God help us", "God will be with us", "May god be with us", "God bless the united states of america", "So help you God", all of these phrases will eventually get a strong impact on people. Presidents use them all the time, for tens of years, hundreds of years and if they continue to use these phrases every time a president is holding a speech it have to have some sort of impact on people's perception of religion.
It is a sort of propaganda weapon. Tell me, what does God have to do with anything of that anyways, the message of jesus christ has got nothing to do with anything really and so there is no reason to use such phrases. Not in a court room, not in a speech, hell not even in a church.
Quote from: baltoro on June 01, 2011, 10:05:16 PM
Most of our major religions were created a thousand years ago, or more, when scientific thought was quite primitive,...
Eh I could dispute that ...
But first :
Around 2000 AD some guy started whorshipping this so called Creator.
Around 0600 AD some guy crawled out of a hole and said there is only one god and his name is Allah.
Around 0090 AD some guy started whorshiping the supposed son of one god
Around 0000-0030 AD some guy crawled out of a hole and said there was only one god and called him the rather imagnitive name God.
Around 1000 BC some guy crawled out of a hole and said there is only one god and called him Jehovah.
Around 2000 BC some guy said there was only one god and called him YHWH.
Around 3000 BC some guy said there was only one god. (Several city-states had made this claim several times, Egyptians tried it once, too)
Around 10,000BC some people thought there was something in those dark caves and made offerings.
What is this obseession with dark places (like caves) and one singular god ??
Faith is something funny, you create a Powerfull illusion character, and then you freak out some sh*t, and ask them their money in the name of God, if they persist, you can call them infidel and kill them. If anyone notice you re lying, you can start a war on them. This kind of religion is bullshit. I demand a Compassionate God, I am the tax payer, I demand God to be my servant, We WIll pay :bdg
I personally believe one God, but I did not belong into any religion. Sometime I loose my faith to God if saw people harming other using God's name.