The middle class is dead.
Unemployment is at 9.6 percent.
1 of every 7 Americans now lives in poverty.
1 out of every 3 Americans has high blood pressure.
Over 50 million Americans have no health care.
Illegal drug use is up to record levels.
Corporate greed controls the government.
Religious fanatics are everywhere.
Guns kill people one innocent bystander at a time.
Other then the above troubles, it's a great place to live. . . :bg
Quote from: Bill Cravener
Unemployment is at 9.6 percent.
It's higher than that, but the government (be it US or UK) simply won't report the true scale, the numbers are ugly. The numbers are also higher in certain regions. The IRS could probably give us more accurate numbers in the year-over-year drop in employee tax receipts. The numbers from payroll processors like ADP would also be more believable.
It's going to get worse. There has been no "recovery", I wouldn't characterize it as a double-dip either, because it hasn't gone up. Cars and houses aren't selling to any real extent, and manufactures are building to order, and holding no stock. Lead times for electronic components is pushing 16-25 weeks.
Quote
Over 50 million Americans have no health care.
They don't have Health Insurance, they do have access to Health Care. There is a picture of America that people paint that suggest you'll pretty much be left to die by the road, but emergency departments are required to treat all comers, and frankly charge the people actually paying for services more, so they can treat those that don't. The services might be at a different level than those who are insured, but there have been enough law suits if they don't provide reasonable care, that they aren't going to leave you to die. You are actually likely to get better care in the US, and have access to CAT and MRI scans, than you are in the UK where things are "free".
The United Complete States Of America :lol
.... Yeah the 51st States are just as bad :bg
Quote from: clive on September 17, 2010, 04:36:52 PM
There is a picture of America that people paint that suggest you'll pretty much be left to die by the road. . .
Yep, its true, people do die here in the states everyday from lack of "health care".
I knew a good follow that had a couple small sores, one on his leg another on his back that would not heal. I suggested that he see a doctor but the gentleman stated he had no "health insurance" and being unemployed was in no position to pay doctor bills. Several years later he became ill and had to be admitted to the "emergency room" but it was too late. It was found that he had melanoma that had spread to other parts of his body. He died one year later.
This happens all the time here in the states. This should not happen to anyone in this country but it does too frequently.
Here's another case in point.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/11/opinion/11krugman.html
I'm self-employed, been so most of my life. I'll soon turn 60 and though I'm in good health and take care of myself it costs me some $1200 bucks a month for "health insurance" with a high deductible. Only in America!! :tdown
The premiums would be less if everyone was buying insurance and the pool was larger, in the manner of the Romney and Obama types of mandated coverage.
Still in the UK and Canada, health care is not magically free. It's paid for with higher taxes on everything, and value added taxes, and it's not particularly good, and access to doctors and dentists is hardly easy or timely.
Then, even access to health care for "free" doesn't help in a great many cases because the availability of high end diagnostics is limited and rationed. General practice doctors are overloaded.
As a counter point to your friends cancer experience:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3135295/Docs-miss-cancer-20-times.html
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3130207/Cancer-missed-by-11-doctors.html
These are just two example from the last week or so, I think you'll find these kind of blow-off diagnosis, and lack of follow up are the rule not the exception. Having lived 20+ years in the UK, and nearly 20 in the US, I think your odds of surviving in the US are far superior.
People die everywhere, everyday. You'll find that lackluster health care, is only marginally better than no health care, unless the doctors actually care about the outcome you're pretty well screwed.
Quote from: clive on September 17, 2010, 07:10:35 PMI think your odds of surviving in the US are far superior.
Average life expectancy
USA 78 years
UK 79
Italy 80
Your chances of dieing of cancer are less in the US vs the UK
http://rex.nci.nih.gov/NCI_Pub_Interface/raterisk/rates39.html
Then again if your doctors never figure it out, perhaps it's hard to attribute your death to a specific cause.
I'm also not sure that age at death tells you much. Countries with low numbers tend to have high infant mortality. And the US has a lower driving age than the UK, and a lot more of them drive, in faster more powerful cars, which kills a lot of teenagers. Access to health care doesn't help much when you nail a pole/tree/classmate at 60+ mph
I've got to agree things are looking pretty bad in the U.S.A. Just about every city is having major budget problems. Police departments are underfunded. Public Schools are having major budget problems. National, State and City parks are having major budget problems. Public Libraries are having major budget problems. Health care for the disabled is being cut way back, if not eliminated. Most of the improvements in health care President Obama made are not in effect yet. The Republicans and Tea Party want to repeal the health care improvements that were just made. They also want to repeal Wall Street Reform. In other words they want to finish off the terrible damages George W. Bush and friends made to our country. And unfortunately a lot of Americans are supporting them.
Quote from: janequorzar on September 18, 2010, 12:08:10 PM
I used to be proud to live here. Now it sucks to live in the USA. Thats saying something !
The sad thing is the USA is meant to be the best place in the world to live in with abundent resources and political and religious freedoms.... With 6 billion people in the world you would think the combined intelligence would have us all living harmonious lives....
It is not a problem with US or any other country...
It is the problem of a social/economical/political and conceptual system based on greed and communities that is failing.
There are only 2 options:
a) continue as it is and face a very long and deep depression that will get worst and then an global war to "fix" it
b) change the essence of our race social organization as a whole species ( remove greed, competition and communities / groups of people )
US is just a piece of the puzzle but the same thing is happening almost everywhere all over the world.
IMHO we will choose option a) and suffer extinction sooner or later ;)
Hence do not be so centered on/about US... I do not think a better situation in US would make a real differences in the long run... it would just delay things for a while :D
Quote from: Bill Cravener on September 17, 2010, 06:45:18 PM
I knew a good follow that had a couple small sores, one on his leg another on his back that would not heal. I suggested that he see a doctor but the gentleman stated he had no "health insurance" and being unemployed was in no position to pay doctor bills. Several years later he became ill and had to be admitted to the "emergency room" but it was too late. It was found that he had melanoma that had spread to other parts of his body. He died one year later.
My interpretation of this is that he made a choice to not seek care for his problem. Whether his reason for that choice was ignorance of how the system works, or an insistence on always paying his way, or a lack of interest in continuing his life, or whatever, it was his choice.
Bogdan,
I agree, the same or worse problems are everywhere in the world. I also tend to agree with your assessment. It's just the topic of the thread is ...
I was born in a strange and exotic country, it was called the "Commonwealth Of Australia" where funny old fashioned ideas like universal health care abounded, people actually thought they had a responsibility to others and it was something like a society, just goes to prove its a sign of age that I remember that far back.
Long stretches of conservative governments tried to destroy much of it and in fact succeeded in many things but they were never game to try and fully dismantle the health care system which survives in reasonable form. While our current government is committed to the health care system, the opposition sit in the wings willing to destroy it again and as usual its done on the basis of costing. Give the entire economy a good PHUKING then claim we cannot afford to provide health care.
Solution is to be healthy, if you need medical treatment, get in and out of hospital like a rocket, minimise your dependence of medications and don't knock yourself around.
Quote from: MichaelW on September 18, 2010, 11:17:42 PM
My interpretation of this is that he made a choice to not seek care for his problem. Whether his reason for that choice was ignorance of how the system works, or an insistence on always paying his way, or a lack of interest in continuing his life, or whatever, it was his choice.
I know of a woman who had to quit her job after being diagnosed with lupus and consequently lost her health insurance coverage. She promptly enrolled in Medicaid and then shortly lost her coverage because of budget reductions to the program. She resisted going to the hospital emergency room when her symptoms worsened because of fear of high medical bills that she could never pay but soon had to be rushed there anyway when she had a seizure. She died just a few months later from not attending to her symptoms until it was too late.
Many millions of sick ailing Americans who are proud honest folks do not wish to burden others with their medical bills and resist treatment until it's just too late. I've seen it happen too many times and I'd be inclined to do the same. You see I to I'm proud and would not want to pass off my medical bills onto others, I'd rather die first.
It shouldn't be this way in a country that claims to be the "greatest country in the world". It really says something about us as a society when we allow profit to dictate the quality of health care. I know of retired folks who are on Medicare with limited income who are on very expensive medication that would rather go without the drugs so they can at the least feed themselves.
We have become a nation where profit and greed is more important then the health and will-being of its people. If I were a younger man I'd be moving to Australia or Canada where they have more concern for the health of their citizens. All of the negative things we have become in America have a single root cause, greed!
Bill,
Since when is NOT wanting to pay through the arse in federal income taxes,
for others to receive medical insurance, a bad thing?
It doesn't matter who I work for, I still don't want to,
nor do I believe it is constitutional to require me to purchase,
or pay for someone else's health care insurance.
Quote
It really says something about us as a society when we allow profit to dictate the quality of health care.
Do you work for free Bill?
I doubt it. You have bills to pay, food, etc.
Why shouldn't a company be allowed to recoup its cost of research and return a profit?
Or just because it is a medical related company,
are they required not to make a profit, but to just break even?
Where would the incentive be to find more cures and new treatments ?
About the healthcare issue, I have a buddy who had an issue with his foot and had to go to the emergency room, it turned out to be nothin but they footed(no pun intended) him with over a thousand dollar bill. He was unemployeed at the time, called some number explained the situation to them, and eventually they just squashed the bill. i'm not saying they do this always, but it does happen and a doctor bill isn't worth someone dieing over.
Quote from: janequorzar on September 20, 2010, 05:47:52 AM
My take on this is, sure pay the medical bills.. But insurance ? that is what drove all the medical profession up in the first place. Its WHY the medical bills are so high. Get rid of being "required" or "forced" to have insurance and lower the costs on medical and we dont have to pay for that plane that the Dr just bought when they head out to the netherlands on thier 2 month vacation that the insurrance company just payed them. :U
That sounds logical but evidence tells a different story: Europe has much better health insurance but much lower health costs than the US. No clear idea why this is the case but it's a fact. Maybe because going quickly to a doctor avoids long-term trouble? What's not even included is that
not caring for health results in economic loss outside the patient-doctor relationship, e.g. bad health leads to job loss etc...
In the UK we have NHS and private, private is on the rise and although it is meant to drive down prices it is always more expensive and actually inflates prices.... They always have a monopoly in their area.... Dentists wont treat you unless you have someone to take you home or live locally because of the anesthetic and you're unlikely to drive to the next town to get your broken leg fixed :bg....
The great thing about privatisation is not that it makes things cheaper it's that it shifts the responsibility, spreads out the blame and creates a complete unneeded insurance industry in the face of high unemployment....
When I travel abroad I want health insurance to cover a multilingual, multicultural health system platform I dont understand and give me coherant all seeing perspective.... When I see my local dentist who lives 5 minutes down the street I dont want to pay $150 for a 20 minute filling....
I think (from experience) that possibly the UKs biggest asset is the NHS, it says my country (my local community) gives a sh*t about something important (ie it's citizens) regardless of age, sex, color or bank balance.... :lol no it wont make me all patriotic I still think my country is a failure on various important issues such as recent wars, and other attitude issues but it's a step in the right direction....
Quote from: rags on September 20, 2010, 03:23:17 AM
Do you work for free Bill?
I doubt it. You have bills to pay, food, etc.
Why shouldn't a company be allowed to recoup its cost of research and return a profit?
Or just because it is a medical related company,
are they required not to make a profit, but to just break even?
Where would the incentive be to find more cures and new treatments ?
Some things are more important than profit, and medical care is absolutely one of them. In general, I don't think medical research
or health care should be done by for-profit corporations, because you can always trust them to consistently put profit above the well-being of the public. I don't work for free, but I
do pay taxes that go to public services, and I (and most every other American) consider that a reasonable thing to do for the common good. We have food stamps to keep the poor from starving to death, now it's high time that we started making sure that the poor stop dying for lack of health care. Hell, you don't really even need to be
poor...just seeing a doctor can be so prohibitively expensive that even your typical, working class citizen may risk financial ruin if they go to the hospital.
It should be illegal for hospitals to render care to poor people and people who don't speak english
Quote
It should be illegal for hospitals to render care to poor people and people who don't speak english
Anybody wanting to force everybody to speak English should first learn that, in English, the names of languages are always written with a capital letter. Sheesh.
Go back to mexico
I'm not Mexican and I don't live in the United States. By the way, you should also learn that, in English, the names of countries are always written with a capital letter. Go back to school.
If you had gone to school you would know that there are many Spanish-speaking countries other than México.
Dude, you're getting trolled. Hard.
Quote from: box on October 09, 2010, 01:29:59 PM
It should be illegal for hospitals to render care to poor people and people who don't speak english
I'm a medicine doctor from Brasil and I live in my country. If the quotation above is the kind of thinking people have at United States you're in bad times. I must say that is the most ridiculous statament I saw in my life. This remembers me some kind of nazist thinking. This is disgusting!
Hola Hombre,
Lo que una vasija de mierda. :tdown
Sensible países han cuidado de salud universal.
tu aires retardo
Quote from: PauloH on October 11, 2010, 11:32:18 AM
Quote from: box on October 09, 2010, 01:29:59 PM
It should be illegal for hospitals to render care to poor people and people who don't speak english
I'm a medicine doctor from Brasil and I live in my country. If the quotation above is the kind of thinking people have at United States you're in bad times. I must say that is the most ridiculous statament I saw in my life. This remembers me some kind of nazist thinking. This is disgusting!
??
Hey, before starting a nice little flaming war, check the early posts of our little "street thug". He seems to be intelligent, so I assume he pulled your leg. And he definitely has a strange sense of humour :green
yah - i think he's pulling your leg :P
in the "what you do for fun" thread, he says he beats people up
i have had occasion to get a little enjoyment out of tossing drunks out on their ears, but it isn't what i'd call a hobby - lol
Only in America can so many go without preventative health care.
Quote from: Bill Cravener on September 17, 2010, 02:56:15 PM
The middle class is dead.
Unemployment is at 9.6 9 percent.
1 of every 7 Americans now lives in poverty.
1 out of every 3 Americans has high blood pressure.
1 in 3 Americans will have Type 2 diabetes by 2050.
Over 50 59 million Americans have no health care.
Illegal drug use is up to record levels.
Corporate greed controls the government.
Religious fanatics are everywhere.
Guns kill people one innocent bystander at a time.
Other then the above troubles, it's a great place to live. . . :bg
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6A905U20101110
Quote from: Bill Cravener on November 11, 2010, 09:30:14 AM
Only in America can so many go without preventative health care.
As a percentage, or physical numbers? Good health care, or subsistence level. I suspect India, China, and those in Africa, might beg to disagree.
QuoteOver 50 59 million Americans have no health care.
Have no health
insurance, per the article. But like car insurance, insurance typically isn't a model for supporting regular maintenance costs, it is a lottery/gaming model to pay out big for a few, at the expense of the many. Health care isn't "free" anywhere. I don't need insurance to fix my car, I am mandated to buy it, will mandating the purchase of health insurance help those who can't or won't pay for it now?
QuoteIllegal drug use is up to record levels.
Should we legalize some of them? That'd fix the accounting problem. Or should we aggressively enforce drug and border issues. Should people be able to phuk up their own lives, or should we be incarcerating large numbers of people with ridiculous sentencing laws. I'd say stop attacking the problem at the individual level, and attack it at the business, money, supply chain and transportation level. Locking people up is not the solution, eliminating the sources/supply, and taking the money would be a good start. Providing communities with meaningful jobs, quality education, would help break this destructive cycle.
i do think we spend too much time and money chasing marijuana smokers - lol
the DEA, as well as local law enforcement departments, are armed to the teeth
in many cases, they are better equipped than the poor guys we send to Iraq
and - they will bring the full brunt of it down on some guy smoking a hooter in the alley
on the flip-side, i don't want any more speed-freaks/crack-heads running around than we already have