EFLAGS set with OF by error?

[thomas_remkus]

If the CPU does not understand a signed verses and unsigned value because it's all just bits and my AL is set to +127 and I either "ADD AL, 1" or "INC AL" then won't the OF flag be set in error? Please note that I am trying to lead a group of people at work and I'm getting some tough questions ... mostly me asking them so far. This information will not just benefit me but a few of us. Thanks for your help!

[BogdanOntanu]

First of all you should NOT lead anybody until you are not a master. And obviously you are not even capable of understanding most simple things yourself. A blind man leading others into the darkness is prone to killing everybody.

My advice is to never teach somebody else until you do not reach master levels yourself and even then you should be extremely cautious.

And please do not use this "I am teaching or leading others" as a way to psychologically blackmail us into helping you. If others really really want to learn then they can make the minimal effort of coming here and asking their own questions and walk their own path instead of being pushed into the darkness by somebody else.

The CPU does "know a little" about signed numbers. More exactly about 2's complement representation of numbers.
Overflow flag is one place where the CPU does "know" about signed numbers.

But basically it is electronics that will perform it's task with no concern about the "concepts in your mind". It is only your concepts in your mind that can be wrong or right depending on how well they do fit on existing electronics/hardware implementations.

[sinsi]

First of all you should NOT lead anybody until you are not a master. And obviously you are not even capable of understanding most simple things yourself. A blind man leading others into the darkness is prone to killing everybody.

My advice is to never teach somebody else until you do not reach master levels yourself and even then you should be extremely cautious.

And please do not use this "I am teaching or leading others" as a way to psychologically blackmail us into helping you. If others really really want to learn then they can make the minimal effort of coming here and asking their own questions and walk their own path instead of being pushed into the darkness by somebody else.

Jesus man, you get more and more up yourself every post don't you wanker?  ::)

[BogdanOntanu]

Jesus man, you get more and more up yourself every post don't you wanker?  Roll Eyes

I am simply trying to help him the best way I know... please excuse if you do not like my ways. I thought it is more important to learn him how to "fish" correctly on the conceptual level that giving him the already cooked fish.

Maybe those ways  are not well suited for you.

[zooba]

If the CPU does not understand a signed verses and unsigned value because it's all just bits and my AL is set to +127 and I either "ADD AL, 1" or "INC AL" then won't the OF flag be set in error? Please note that I am trying to lead a group of people at work and I'm getting some tough questions ... mostly me asking them so far. This information will not just benefit me but a few of us. Thanks for your help!

To actually answer your question, the OF flag will be set but not in error. Because, as you say, the CPU cannot tell the difference between 128 and -128 when using a single byte, it will always update the overflow flag in this situation.

If you, the programmer, want to differentiate between signed and unsigned numbers, you use different flags - in this context, probably the carry flag.

Code Select Expand

mov al, 127
add al, 1
; overflow flag (OF) is set, carry flag (CF) is clear

mov al, 255
add al, 1
; overflow flag (OF) is clear, carry flag (CF) is set

mov al, -1
add al, 1
; this is exactly the same as above, since
; -1  = 11111111b, and
; 255 = 11111111b

Super-simplistically, the overflow flag will be set for a signed overflow (127<->-128) and the carry flag will be set for unsigned overflow (0<->255). It is up to the programmer to pay attention to only one of these flags depending on how they (the programmer) wishes to interpret the values.

Cheers,

Zooba :U

[Tedd]

Boggy: It seems you are becoming increasingly aggresive towards people asking what you consider to be 'stupid questions.' Please consider what you're saying before posting. Or, if you have nothing useful to say, consider not posting at all.



The short version: it updates the flag according to both results -- it's then up to you to decide which flags you take notice of (and therefore whether it was a signed or unsigned result.) Compare the conditional jumps: ja/jb with jg/jl

[BogdanOntanu]

Boggy:

Thank you for the new name, probably you know that I need one.

It seems you are becoming increasingly aggresive

Hmm, since when telling the truth and being yourself is considered to be "aggressive"?

I was simply trying to help the man the best way I know:  with simple  logical advices that come from my experience.

Should I understand that you do prefer some causal nice hypocrite lies?

towards people asking what you consider to be 'stupid questions.'

I never said I consider his question "stupid" please do not put words in my mouth.

Please consider what you're saying before posting.

I always do. It is hard to really help somebody evolve and in this matter concepts always come first. Feeding somebody with predigested  code comes last.

However I will NEVER consider not telling the truth just in order to keep people comfortable in darkness. If you suggest that I should lie just in order to be more polite then you can "forget about it" because it is never going to happen.

Or, if you have nothing useful to say, consider not posting at all.

Nice try. However I do consider that I  have a lot of useful things to say... but only to people that have the courage to bare the truth. If you can not bare the truth then you can consider not reading my posts.

[thomas_remkus]

Actually, "first of all", I am not trying to "psychologically blackmail" anyone into helping me. This is a forum of which I have been a member for a while and have been struggling with ASM for a very long time. I feel that I am diligent and honest in my approach and am not misleading anyone. My goal is to just let others know, as a member of this community, into what I'm doing with MASM and personally. It seems that you have been hurt by someone or some people in the past and I want to assure you that I am not those people and I'm not here to hurt you. I would just like to learn and share some of the joys I have had with MASM with others.

I think that you must form your replies out of anger and find some joy in feeling that you are hurting others. Please understand that I am not trying to hide my identity (as I use my real name here) and you might be upsetting more people than you know by your seemingly thoughtless words. And saying that ,"you should NOT lead anybody until you are not a master" just proves what I am saying. In the rush to hurt me you seem to have included more "not"(s) than you may have intended. Again, I'm not trying to hurt you so I hope you can release me as your target of anger.

Phew, now, maybe I need to explain a little more about my "leading". What I have at work is a private SMF forum for my co-workers. We are all reading Kip Irvine's book but at different levels. My leadership is mostly just coming from encouragement and to let them know that we can help each other. Kip's books is very good but also leaves holes in some areas. So I have questions myself and my co-workers have questions. Now, I am not teaching formal classes as that would not be in anyone's best interest. And as I said in my post, *I* am the person really asking the questions so far.

Please do not put my friends and co-workers down by making it seem that they are too weak to login to this forum to get their own help. You don't know them and they are good people. I feel that their intentions are true and they do "really really" want to learn. It's up to them to sign-up for a forum and I'm not "leading" them to come here if Bogdan is going to treat them with such disrespect. And as being a Global Moderator is speaks poorly of the forum IMO. Way to scare way people who "really really" want to learn.

I admit that I am not capable of telling you about how signed or unsigned values work ... but to tell me that I am not capable of understanding how they work is plain posturing. Mr. Bodgan, your are nieve. We have never met and you know nothing of which I am capable. As a moderator you represent this forum and a certain kind of "face" to MASM. I have read many of your posts and know that you are a well versed person in may computer things. I am not trying to lead anyone into darkness but am leading them to our common SMF forum and telling them about Kip's book. If there are simple questions then I am happy to answer and happy to be humble and say that I don't know. If they want to read about what I say then they can come here and search for "remkus" as, again ... I'm not hiding myself or my intentions to learn MASM or represent myself.

Mr. Bogdan, I want to also say that if your intention was to truely "help [me] the best way [you] know" then understand that I left the corps a long time ago and do not respond well to those types of bully tactics. What you offered me was more generalized statement than any answer. If that was to push me to find an answer on my own with no new information (to which I understand) then know that I can not peer into YOUR mind and translate what you typed into something I could really use.

Zooba, I love your explanation. I'm writing this down in my book and committing it to memory. Thanks for the example and your time. That was great!

Tedd, thanks for the point to those jumps. I'm looking them up now and that's exactly what I needed. More wonderful information.

Mr. Bogdan, telling the truth is a good idea. And the truth is if you are being yourself then you are an aggressive person that might need to moderate himself in the "Campus". It is also true that you do not know what I am capable of or not and making accusations seem like statements of fact leads more people down a dark path than to help them make baby steps. I feel that your experiences have lead you to people that have hurt you and I hope you know that I am not your enemy. I do NOT want you to lie or push people into this darkness you seem to be afraid of. Some people are comfortable with getting the answers and not being harassed at the same time. I like to think of myself as a person that does not like to be harassed.

Mr. Bodgan, I also feel that you have many useful things to say. I hope that while voicing my displeasure with your style of posting and attacks does not make you think that I do not respect your MASM knowledge or knowledge of which I would like to one day also understand. Your skills are very good with MASM but I'm not so sure about your people skills. Maybe if you limited your post conversations to just bare MASM facts and not attacking people then other might find you more of the "silent-expert" type and not the "joy-serial-killer" type. I did read your post and think you were attempting to personally hurt me. Can you please not do that again?

[BogdanOntanu]

Please excuse a very long post...

Actually, "first of all", I am not trying to "psychologically blackmail" anyone into helping me.

I am glad to hear that. However what other purpose does your statement about leading others have in the context of your question? Maybe subconsciously you are trying to give your question a bit more weight... try to act more like an responsable individual next. Do not bring unknown "others" into discussions and concentrate on what you like to learn instead.

This is a forum of which I have been a member for a while and have been struggling with ASM for a very long time.

Good for you. This forum does provide a lot of knowledge. However the struggling part I am not sure about. While not for the faint of heart ASM is not that very complex in order to require a long time struggle; at least not for the very basic concepts.

I feel that I am diligent and honest in my approach and am not misleading anyone.

Did anybody say that you are not honest? Why do you mention this?
Misleading can be done with full honesty. The perfect example being that of a blind man helping others to find a place that requires eyes. Hence I have suggested that you lead yourself into knowledge first and leave others to walk their own ways... maybe toward this forum.

My goal is to just let others know, as a member of this community, into what I'm doing with MASM and personally.

Helping others requires a kind of authority that comes only from personal  experience. Helping  is a very subtle process sometimes soft in expression and at times even harsh in expression. You can not "lead" simply by being a member of a community. I suggest that you concentrate on learning yourself and gaining hands-on experience with MASM and ASM programming in general. Then one day you will be able to help others.

Social interactions are nice and community does provide comfort for the seeker. However One must perform his own work and tests and can not base his knowledge and work only on the comfort provided by a nice group.

Making another custom forum and transferring knowledge from here to there is not the way to go. As I have said before your co-workers can simply come here and ask their own questions.

Half of the learning process is in correctly formulating the question.

It seems that you have been hurt by someone or some people in the past and I want to assure you that I am not those people and I'm not here to hurt you.

Assumptions..assumptions.

Wrong  assumptions of course, I have never been hurt in the past.

I would just like to learn and share some of the joys I have had with MASM with others.

That is quite ok. But concentrate on learning and even more important on understanding. The joy of sharing will come later on by itself once you have something to offer.

At first you have nothing to offer and that is normal and natural. Tho start sharing when you have nothing is childish. The seed must grow until the flower can share it's perfume. If the seed dreams of perfume sharing it will forget to grow into an adult plant.

I think that you must form your replies out of anger and find some joy in feeling that you are hurting others.

I suggest that you concentrate less on what you "think" that "I" must be doing.

There is no anger and no joy in hurting. It is only your ego that was "hurt". An imagination of your mind. It was supposed to be a push in the right direction, "a pointer" so to speak. You have missed it this time. Be a little more perceptive next time.

Please understand that I am not trying to hide my identity (as I use my real name here) and you might be upsetting more people than you know by your seemingly thoughtless words.

Who said that you are trying to hide your identity here. It is obvious that your nick here apparently corresponds to a real  German name hence why would anybody consider that you want to hide anything?

However people that do hide their identity might have their own perfectly valid reasons. Each one is free to choose based on his heart and situation. BTW my name here is also real.

and you might be upsetting more people than you know by your seemingly thoughtless words

This statement is priceless. It does not matter if a big number of people do see and perceive things wrongly. The truth does not bend in front of large groups of people. I have noticed that others here apparently feel the same way like you (Tedd, Sinsi, etc)

Nevertheless my words have been carefully crafted withe the purpose to push you into the right direction. They act in mysterious ways. One day you will understand.

And saying that ,"you should NOT lead anybody until you are not a master" just proves what I am saying. In the rush to hurt me you seem to have included more "not"(s) than you may have intended. Again, I'm not trying to hurt you so I hope you can release me as your target of anger.

I think that a sentence like ""You should not .... until you are not ...." is correct in English language. English is not my native language and hence I do make mistakes (mostly spelling). I also know German, French, Italian and other languages and you must understand that at times it is hard to maintain coherence in writing in so many languages.

When I make a mistake it is just a mistake. I does not show intention to hurt or anger.

Besides in this case it think the sentence format is correct.

There is nothing to release because I do not know what anger is anymore and you are not my target. You perceive it as anger from your current state of the mind. As I have said before in time you will understand.

I simply try to help you on a conceptual level. Others try to help you an a lower level: like giving you code and direct knowledge explanations. It is not my way to give that kind of knowledge first because I like to start with concepts but I think here on this forum you will find both types of help pretty well covered.

Phew, now, maybe I need to explain a little more about my "leading". What I have at work is a private SMF forum for my co-workers. We are all reading Kip Irvine's book but at different levels. My leadership is mostly just coming from encouragement and to let them know that we can help each other. Kip's books is very good but also leaves holes in some areas. So I have questions myself and my co-workers have questions. Now, I am not teaching formal classes as that would not be in anyone's best interest. And as I said in my post, *I* am the person really asking the questions so far.

Making a private forum is not really a good idea. there is a alot of things that your co workers can read about here. A lot of links and samples. Copyiing this to your own forum is purposeless.

Maybe you did not expressed yourself right when you mentioned "leading others" then?. You need to learn about how to ask questions and how not to include  things that are not correct or of no interest to the question.

If you did not mentioned "leading others" maybe this topic would have been much more "soft".

Please do not put my friends and co-workers down by making it seem that they are too weak to login to this forum to get their own help.

I can not put them down. IF they really want to learn then nothing will put them down. Surely not some words I have spoken. If some words can make the down and make them leave then they had no real honest desire to learn. There will be more problems to learning and understanding that some "words".

You don't know them and they are good people. I feel that their intentions are true and they do "really really" want to learn.

You talk too much about others. Are you a kind of manager? How on Earth do you really know what it is inside their souls? Stop using "others" as a cover. Think about yourself instead. They will be OK once they make their own conscientious choices. Let them learn and let yourself learn.

I have news for you: you can never know somebody else BUT you can know yourself... and the funny part is that you avoid yourself and run to get cover under "others".

It's up to them to sign-up for a forum and I'm not "leading" them to come here if Bogdan is going to treat them with such disrespect.

Of course that it is up to them however where do you get your "disrespect" idea from? We could have a very long talk about the word "respect". It comes from Greek and it means "re" "specta" in free translation "look again" ... for something you desire to have because somebody else has. It is a very bad word used by gangs to show "respect".

However I am aware that you kind of not uderstand this and use respect with another meaning. You think that if I am speaking the truth and am agressive and have "no respect".

You are wrong. Exactly because I dare to speak the truth and at time take upon me the blame of being a little more harsh and not very polite that i do respect your inner soul more. I know you will balme me but I put the canche of your evolution and understanding above beeing hypoctite and polite and above spoon feeding you knowledge.

I can take the blame... But can you understand?

And again please let you co-workers make up their own minds... Who knows maybe I will be extremely polite toward them :D
Depends on their questions. You can never guess ;)

And as being a Global Moderator is speaks poorly of the forum IMO. Way to scare way people who "really really" want to learn.

Golobal moderator is not an "elite" title neither a privilege or an image position. It simply means a lot of work in erasing unwantex XXX posts. It means removing or locking questionable content and yes at times I have to be harsh with people that walk in the shadows and do not explain their intentions fully (like Vx makers). I have to enforce the rules and I do so freely and on my own time and energy.

I never use this position into debates or normal posts.

Hence in this thread I did not posted in this "official quality". You will know when I used my global moderator "powers" when you thread is locked or deleted or you will be asked to clarify your intentions in questionable matters. This is Not an issue here.

I admit that I am not capable of telling you about how signed or unsigned values work ... but to tell me that I am not capable of understanding how they work is plain posturing. Mr. Bodgan, your are nieve.

Nobody doubted that. But IF you ask simple questions and stop mentioning others you "lead on" and you explain you problems in better details then you will be fine.

What i have told you was not "posturing".

I was simply stating that until you can not understand such simple issues and until you do not learn the basics of asking questions you should NOT lead anybody. My opinion still stands.

It does not make you smaller because at some moment in time everyone of us had to learn and understand this issue. However not so many of us dare to "lead" and when we asked question I think we only asked about: "How do signed/unsigned numbers work in ASM or at CPU level?

Such a simple question would have been answered at once by many forum members and I would have probably never had to step in and push you into the "right direction"....

We have never met and you know nothing of which I am capable.

Nice childish speak. I do not have to meet you in person to understand your level. For an inteligent person very few words you speak and attitudes you take tell miles about your status of evolution. Of course not everything but quite enough.

You can not hide behind "virtual world and physical contacts". I have never meet Hutch or many other people here but still they never get such a lecture :P Why? because they act responsible and understand and... they never said " You have never met me hence shut up ...".

What you are capable of? In essence you are God like every one of us. but that essence need to be revealed by your own work and understanding.

Until then you are apparently not capable to understand signed numbers in computers. I am sure this is a temporary status and probably today you already understand them a little bit better tha yesterday and you are sure it is not because on my help but because of what others have toled you here so kindly.... but nevertheless "what I am capable of"... is priceless funny at least...

As a moderator you represent this forum and a certain kind of "face" to MASM.

No it do not. It is huch's forum. As a moderator a perform some work for free. Not very pleasant but needed.
You are in Error if you consider that represent a "face" for MASM or this forum. I only represent myself.

Mr. Bogdan, I want to also say that if your intention was to truely "help [me] the best way [you] know" then understand that I left the corps a long time ago and do not respond well to those types of bully tactics.

"the corps" ? are you talking about army here? or about your physically body?

It is your ego that think it does not like those "tactics". They are not "bully". Just a little harsh because that is what you needed now. Of course beginners always think they know how a master should tech them. They know nothing but they have very very precise requirements about what and how to be told and teched. Funny is it not?

Well my friend, a real master will always ignore what you think... because he will know better that you exactly what your errors are. Otherwise he would not be a master would he :P

Wake up! Yes you can be spoon feed code and technical explanations by others and you will feel nice and warm. Many people here are kindly doing exactly this and blame me silently for not doing this.

Unfortunately this make you a "hard drive" and an "encyclopedia of knowledge" and accumulated facts but it does not help you learn how to learn. The information is irrelevant. You can find it on Google, in books or by searching this forum or the links in this forum...

The real teaching is teaching you how to LEARN.

What you offered me was more generalized statement than any answer.

YES! that is very important. The practical answer is auxiliary and it is so much better when you find it yourself.

If that was to push me to find an answer on my own with no new information (to which I understand) then know that I can not peer into YOUR mind and translate what you typed into something I could really use.

Use is irrelevant. Understanding is the key. Even IF you could peer into my mind it woul be of no use to you... because it is not the scope that matters but the path you have walked until the target. And you can not walk by my side. You can only walk on your own road.

Of course I know that you think that knowledge is importand and understanding and the path to it is not important and you just want to get the knowledge faster. But I think that this kind of attitude is wrong.

Mr. Bogdan, telling the truth is a good idea.

Of course, but nevertheless the truth is never comfortable and never received well.

And the truth is if you are being yourself then you are an aggressive person that might need to moderate himself in the "Campus".

This is false. You perceive truth as an aggression. It si not comfortable, it is not spoon feeding you...but it is the truth and it is not aggressive...not even a little bit. You will see that in time.

It is also true that you do not know what I am capable of or not and making accusations seem like statements of fact leads more people down a dark path than to help them make baby steps.

Again the "what I am capable stuff" ...grow up... it is clear of what you are capable today...
I made no accusations. It is a logical inference. If you have no hands on experience, no understanding then you should not lead others. Period.

I feel that your experiences have lead you to people that have hurt you and I hope you know that I am not your enemy.

Oh dear...
No nobody ever hurt me... it is not possible. Of course you can hurt this body but my soul can not be touched ;)

I do NOT want you to lie or push people into this darkness you seem to be afraid of.

I do not know what fear is. I just waned you of what would happen if you continue this line of actions. Fair warning out of compassion that is all.

Some people are comfortable with getting the answers and not being harassed at the same time. I like to think of myself as a person that does not like to be harassed.

Yes of course...but this is the wrong path of action.
Nobody can actually harass you. Again it is simply your imagination and ego getting in here.
All I did was giving you concepts instead of direct answers, some fair warnings about "leading others" and even some direct answers to your questions when they have been clearely formulated.

IF you consider this as "harassment" simply because I do not follow the path of others...then my friend you do have some issues.
You should also notice that while I do not agree with Tedd and others that spoon feed you I still do not object to their methods.

They do have the right to choose and perform it.

Mr. Bodgan, I also feel that you have many useful things to say. I hope that while voicing my displeasure with your style of posting and attacks does not make you think that I do not respect your MASM knowledge or knowledge of which I would like to one day also understand.

I would prefer that you do not respect me but instead learn how to learn and understand. With understanding this all discussion will become childish and just a play in the "kindergarden" before we grow up. I am sure that one day we will both make fun of this situation.

Your skills are very good with MASM but I'm not so sure about your people skills.

My skills are irrelevant. My understanding of both technology and people is huge..on levels you can not conceive yet. But one day you will be able. Hurry on.

Maybe if you limited your post conversations to just bare MASM facts and not attacking people then other might find you more of the "silent-expert" type and not the "joy-serial-killer" type.

Surely I would not be named joy serial killer.... but "expert" is a blashphemy also.

I know that people just want the "facts" and never want to understanding because it bares responsibility.

Sorry but I can not do that . I would be plain wrong.

Billions of people and thousands of generations have done exactly what you ask for here. The results are catastrophic: a race with a lot of childish knowledge that is manipulated and enslaved and have no chance or evolution.

I think it is time to change this and if all it takes is being a little harsh and can take the blame up on myself. The whole idea of freedom is about being yourself (the real one) and not what a community wants you to be. Of course with the attached responsibility.

I know you want the sweet apple of knowledge without the bitter taste of understanding. Obviously you can find this sweetness in this forum and many people here will provide it to you. When you want everything ...you know where to find me ;)

I did read your post and think you were attempting to personally hurt me. Can you please not do that again?

I do not. Why would I try to hurt you... remember " ... i do not know who you are and what you are capable of..." hence why would I care about you?

No my friend I am simply trying to help you understand.... One day you will also see this...

[Tedd]

Bogdan:
It's quite simple - the question was not addressed to you, and you had little of value to contribute by replying. There was no need for you to reply at all.
You may believe that by zealously pushing the statement "go and learn it yourself!" you're helping in some way, and sometimes that is indeed useful for pushing people into seeking the knowledge for themselves, but not always. When a beginner asks a simple theory question - only to clarify their existing understanding - is it necessary to jump on them and declare "learn it for yourself!"? Sometimes it is good to lead others, and sometimes it is good to push them - but don't confuse the two. If it were only ever necessary to push and reply to every post with "learn it yourself" then we could save a whole lot of time by replacing the forum with a large banner declaring "You must seek the knowledge for yourself." The irony is that by asking here, they are doing exactly that.
As for the aggressive tone perceived from your replies.. We are perceived as we represent ourselves - none can peer into our souls, and thus we can not expect to be understood past how we show ourselves to others. So, if you choose an aggressive stance in your posts, that is how you will be perceived - whether or not that is your intention or meaning, people can only view what you show. To appear to be aggressive IS to be aggressive.
You are no more of a master than I am - attempting to portray yourself as such behind the guise of "teaching others how to learn and seek the 'truth'" does not change that. You are doing nothing more than pushing your own zealotary agenda and showing your own arrogance.

[BogdanOntanu]

Bogdan:
It's quite simple - the question was not addressed to you,

Dear Tedd,

It is quite simple and the other way around.

On a forum your questions are addressed to each and all members. When somebody does choose to reply he/she does so on his own time and from his own experience. Hence you can not honestly say that the question was not addressed to me also.

IF the OP wanted only you to answer then he could have clearly stated this by asking you Tedd in an explicit way. But his question was addressed to everybody and I have chosen to answer it for my own reasons in an exercise of my right to speak my opinion.

Even IF the OP would have stated that only you should answer his question...still this is a public forum and hence there is a risk of other people to answer and they might have a different opinion than yours.

and you had little of value to contribute by replying. There was no need for you to reply at all.

This is very unfair from your part. First of all I did provide useful information to thomas_remkus.

I told him that the CPU does know a little about 2's complement and this hinted him to go an study this kind of number representation in computers. It is not "go learn yourself". It is more like: go and study 2's complement representation.

This issue of number representation in computer systems is introductory to any course or book on ASM. AoA for example does cover it pretty nicely. I know that is boring but you do have to study this.

Then i told him that the OF will be changed in those cases correctly and I have told him that it is actually electronic device that does know nothing about "concepts" but simply setups the flag according to internal states. The logical inference is that you as a human decide how to interpret this flag. (yes he had to make this little logical step himself)

I do not know how many people did you teach but I did teach a lot of programmers and from my experience this works best.
yes some are resistant and insist on being spoon feed. It never worked when I did this...

You may believe that by zealously pushing the statement "go and learn it yourself!" you're helping in some way, and sometimes that is indeed useful for pushing people into seeking the knowledge for themselves, but not always.

I am sorry but YOU might think that I do think such a nonsense and that I am acting in this direction. It is just an imagination of your mind. I never say that. I put emphasis on the fact that you should make your own small experiments and steeps because this is how I have learned. However I also recognize that at start one must be guided a little. But he has to have good will and it is imperative not to spoon feed somebody or else he/she will not get very far although it does look like a "progress" and it is "kind of kind".

I also put emphasis on how you ask questions because this does show a lot of what is going on in your brain and if the general attitude and direction is correct.

If the OP did not mention the he is "leading" others I would have not made a comment on that. You need to relate this to his other posts where he did mention that his program is not "working correctly" but failed to provide a a small sample of his code that failed.

This is no big deal. I do not see why you choose to debate it to the death. Each and every beginner makes such mistakes. He does need to be pushed into the right direction and that is all ..case closed. Some learn and understand and some choose to argue with the teacher and loose...such is life.

Here he also has the option to be given  more direct answers by you and others that consider this to be the better method. Hence all parts are happy. We will see in time how they evolve by this method.

When a beginner asks a simple theory question - only to clarify their existing understanding - is it necessary to jump on them and declare "learn it for yourself!"?

No it is not... and I do not do this. As I have said before it is just your mind imagination. I give him his answer here and made a slightly harsh comment ONLY because he did mention "leading others" and another "private forum". If the question is clear and honest then also my answer will be brief. Probably more on the conceptual level than yours but so am I.

Sometimes it is good to lead others, and sometimes it is good to push them - but don't confuse the two.

I make no confusions... from a long time now....

If it were only ever necessary to push and reply to every post with "learn it yourself" then we could save a whole lot of time by replacing the forum with a large banner declaring "You must seek the knowledge for yourself." The irony is that by asking here, they are doing exactly that.

Again imaginations of you mind. Seriously now.... I did give the man his answer: 2's complement.
I also added something extra to the answer.... not exactly an huge banner with "learn yourself".

You are dreaming and changing reality to suit your own mind.

I also do not like your ways of answering. However I let you do it without interference and I hope that one day you will understand. I never criticized you when you did it.

As for the aggressive tone perceived from your replies..

It is just a perception.

We are perceived as we represent ourselves - none can peer into our souls, and thus we can not expect to be understood past how we show ourselves to others.

Do not be so sure about that my friend. But I do agree that generally this is the case. However you have to refine you perception until it can not be tricked by what other "show".

Otherwise you will be a puppet either manipulated by what others choose to "show" externally or simply by your errors in perception.

You need to know what people really are inside and not what show they put up. Most people do learn how to improve this perception in time. Trust me: it can be done but it is not a discussion for an ASM board.

So, if you choose an aggressive stance in your posts, that is how you will be perceived - whether or not that is your intention or meaning, people can only view what you show. To appear to be aggressive IS to be aggressive.

NO. Aggressive is to perform something aggressive not to be perceived as such by a group. Otherwise we will all have to bend to the need of the group and loose our individuality and intelligence. It would be a rape and we will all end being exactly the same.

No my friend aggressive means to really perform an aggressive action. Trying to help somebody and to correct his mistakes is not aggressive. After all we are on a forum he can very easy ignore what I say I have no grip or powers on him and remember that I did give him the hints that he needed.

And besides this methods and not very uncommon. It is not very uncommon for a Zen master to hit you hard with a stick at unexpected times just in order to make you realize the TRUTH.

I understand that you prefer superficially apparent methods. I prefer the essence. You are free to make your choice I am also free... I have posted what I consider to be correct. You a have posted also. But now you are trying to tell me not to post ... ironical is it not?

Perceptions can be wrong and unusually they are but you must become intelligent enough to be able to see beyond what is superficially apparent. Live in the essence and not on the periferic superficial apparency.

You are no more of a master than I am - attempting to portray yourself as such behind the guise of "teaching others how to learn and seek the 'truth'" does not change that. You are doing nothing more than pushing your own zealotary agenda and showing your own arrogance.

I have no agenda here. Arrogance is not here from a long time ago... the fact that you perceive it like this is a sad fact but I hope that one day you will grow to see the truth.

[hutch--]

 :bg

There is a simple distinction in play here, if you want the quality of response, get used to the idea that empty questions tend to get hostile responses where sensible questions tend to get sensible answers. The alternative is empty answers to sensible questions. The answer to the question is contained in the Intel manuals with flags and conditional jumps.

I have to agree with Bogdan here that while thomas has been around for a long time in this forum, he is in no position to become the teacher when he has not by his own statement come to terms with assembler programming, even after such a long exposure.

Now many people here will help learners but the quality of question could do with some improvement.

[Tedd]

Since when did it become acceptable to reply with hostility towards another member? Thomas asked a question - there was no offence inherent in it, and it does not even come close to breaking any of the rules. So why is it okay to respond in that way? And the question was far from 'empty' - it was simply a request for clarification. I don't believe it required any kind of 'proof of attempt.' Of course the answer could be found in the intel manuals, but then so could the answers for numerous other questions, yet they don't appear to have provoked such a response. Some people do need direction instead of an effective response of RTFM - not everyone is able to learn simply by reading a dry technical manual.
As for the whole 'teaching' issue, there's a major misunderstanding based on Bogdan's literal interpretation of the word 'leading' that was used (amusing for one who claims to be so enlightened.) There was no implication that he was attempting to teach others, simply that he is the foremost learner. A consequence of this is that the others will therefore come to him as the first point of call for any problems they encounter, if only through familiarity. There is no problem with this - it's no different to members helping each other out - as long as he doesn't attempt to help outside of his own knowledge. But hey, maybe that's why he asked here.
Ordinarily I wouldn't even bother getting involved, but this isn't the first (or second, or third) time Bogdan has replied in such a way. Apparently I'm not the only one to have noticed this. My reply was not intended as an attack, but only to point this out in the hope that certain people might consider their responses before posting in an agressive, or rudely sarcastic manner.

[thomas_remkus]

Hutch: I understand. My question was less clear and to get a more quality response I should provide quality questions where I can do so. I appreciate you opinion about my being a teacher and I will take that to heart. Please know that that is NOT my intention in this case.

Tedd: I also did not initially feel that my question required source or diagram but more of a whisper to let me know I was on the right path. I would love to  be the person that can read the Intel manuals and get all the answers. I'm not quite that person. All of my questions here have been my own, luckily. Of the people in my group two people have not started, 1 just finished chapter 1, and the other asks no questions of anyone. So for me, this is a place a feel comfortable. I still feel comfortable here.

[thomas_remkus]

Maybe you're right and subconsciously I'm trying to do something. I admit that might be the case. I felt more like a little brother talking to big brother ... and what you said might indeed apply. Ok.

I will work on struggling less. Each time I learn a "basic concept" I do feel that I struggle less.

Good suggestion on "concentrate on learning yourself and gaining hands-on experience". I think that's what I am doing now. I work on it a little more. I'm making mental plans on how to do that even as I type.

I like your seed/flower koan. I will keep that with me. Thank you.

You say that you have crafted your words carefully. While my ego might have suffered some bruising I did not find any lies in what you said. So I will believe this and examine much more closely your words as they relate directly to me and not to the masses.

How/why do you no longer know anger? (private post if you do respond, please)

Hutch also mentioned making more quality questions.

I will think long about what you have said about hiding and others. Thank you.

I appreciate your concern of my soul. You are taking a risk in your approach. I more understand.

My ego was bruised. I know that. I am not a master. I possibly do not know how to learn. I believe I am capable. I am yet a noob that is wandered from reference to reference reading much and only truly uncovering something that could connect to something I already knew. Making familiar references more extended. Are you such a master? What would you recommend for me? How do I learn?

My path has been erratic. I only venture a few miles from home before I return. Then I return to that path many times over and only change the path take on a new distance once that path is "understood". When all logical paths are understood I will then make a more broad approach and increase the millage. My MASM experience has been a reflection of this. I struggle because I frequent myself with "beginner" topics over and over again because the more I see them the more I feel that I understand them. I don't have any higher level tricks because I haven't allowed myself to try. I will think about what you have said and will reflect. If you want to assist or guide then please know that you are welcome. And know that I no longer "respect" you.

I will not lead others today. Period.

I will post with my questions relevant code.

I am happier now that I have posted incorrectly and to have found a Mr. Bodgan that I did not think existed. While I do not fully understand your methods I am open ...