Tragedy in Norway

[MichaelW]

I don't know anyone who thinks we should all be armed. I have no problem with sane, law-abiding citizens being armed, and where I live any person properly fitting this description can secure a right to do so legally by going through the program and getting a concealed-carry license. And where I live it's very normal, for boys at least, to grow up with guns and hunting.

[hutch--]

The model we had here in OZ for a long time was that rifles did not need to be licenced but handguns were very hard to get a licence for. It was aimed at not being able to conceal a weapon. Many houses after ww2 had a 303 ex army rifle and almost every house had a 22 rifle in it somewhere.

The problem has been at various places where these types of massacres of unarmed people were killed that there was no defense whatsoever and the loonie with the gun could keep on shooting people. We had it years ago in Port Arthur in Tasmania where no-one could shoot back. massacres at US schools with the same problem, vulnerable people completely undefended by the society that is supposed to protect them. What is the point of banning guns when in many societies that have done so, the massacres still occur ?

The people who commit these atrocities are not heros, they are cowards killing innocent people because the targets cannot defend themselves, they don't go rushing in to places where they can be killed themselves. We had one in the western suburbs of Sydney over 10 years ago in Strathfield, the guys name was Wade Frankum and after hearing the interview with his counsellor the spoonerism "Frayed Wankum" cam very close to the mark.

There is something blatantly wrong with the view that if you keep banning guns over and over again that the problem will go away, it hasn't, the murder rates have not dropped over the years they have been in force and with a disarmed society it remains vulnerable to loonie that will get a gun one way or another.

[Gunner]

When you give it any thought this loony was dressed as an officer. Now lets say there was a security guard there I bet the first thing that nut would have done was to walk up to that security guy and blow his brains out first thing.

I just wonder, you guys who think we should all be armed have you ever even fired a weapon before? For that matter have you ever kill a living thing with one? I doubt it!

Actually I have.  Fired hundreds of thousands of different types of rounds.  When you have a human locked down your sights, it is, shall we say a cool and powerful feeling.  Fired at a human? Yes I have, killed anyone..  I won't answer that one.

I do agree with you Bill, if you are going to get a permit you should HAVE TO take a safety course, and maybe some shooting practice before you get a permit.  Shooting at something accurately, takes not only skill but experience.. muscle memory...

I can picture a looney in Times Square... a round is fired, and from inexperience and no training you have 100's of people shooting.  Happens with cops, a round is fired and you get 3 cops emptying their clips...  Never really understood that, well except for too little training...  It became second nature with all the range time we got...  double tap to center mass, and then head shot if neccessary... not emptying a clip...

Gun control?  I can't stand those words...  that only hurts the LAW ABIDING SANE people...  criminals will still get their hands on a gun.  Here in NYC it is next to impossible to get a pistol permit... but yet there is more and more gun fire from ILLEGAL guns... nothing any law can do about that...

[Bill Cravener]

I do agree with you Bill, if you are going to get a permit you should HAVE TO take a safety course, and maybe some shooting practice before you get a permit.  Shooting at something accurately, takes not only skill but experience.. muscle memory...

I can picture a looney in Times Square... a round is fired, and from inexperience and no training you have 100's of people shooting.  Happens with cops, a round is fired and you get 3 cops emptying their clips...  Never really understood that, well except for too little training...  It became second nature with all the range time we got...  double tap to center mass, and then head shot if neccessary... not emptying a clip...

My point exactly! You know Gunner I've been an avid hunter since I was 12 years old. I remember once being all excited when a young teen and shooting a pheasant when the law only allowed you to shoot the male ringneck. My father slapped me a side the head and nearly knocked me on my ass for doing so. I learned a lesson that day and that is make sure what it is you're shooting at.

Later in life I once gut shot a 6 point buck and I and my buddies spent over two hours following its blood trail until we came upon it. It was on the ground bleeding to death and crying just like a baby human would in severe pain. It was disturbing to say the least and from that day on I would never take the shot unless I was certain the animal was close enough that my shot was on target so the animal would not suffer. You have my utmost respect Gunner, I could not imagine shooting another human being but when you are in combat its either you or them.

[zemtex]

Of course only real experience can actually tell whether it works or not, but in my opinion, if you give citizens right to carry a gun. It takes away many qualities:

1: You can't really trust anyone, do you dare say anything rude to a man carrying a gun?

2: The society will be filled with fear all the time, fear is not a good quality

3: People of low impulse control is a serious problem, and there are many people who "suffer" low impulse control

4: If a man is not suited to carry a gun, it would be ridiculously easy for him to steal a gun from a random citizen who happens to carry a gun

5: It won't actually reduce mass murder, it will instead intrigue to better planning and perhaps have even more devastating effect

6: Police will have less power, which I guess can be both good and bad, more bad than good

7: If we resort to solving the problems of society by allowing people to carry guns, how should we solve other problems in similar areas?  :P

[oex]

Like you said, one responsible person with a gun would have finished him off early on.

For almost every one of these massacres one armed and competent person could have prevented many deaths.

Where are all the competent people these days :lol.... I know so many people with a public and private face.... Even the people deemed 'competant' by 'the powers that be' at the cutting edge of society turn out to be complete nutcases.... A certain astronaut springs to mind however I can think of many others.... Is it 1 in 4 people have a *diagnosed* mental condition at some point in their lives? How many are never diagnosed? Certainly I do not know one asm programmer who isnt clinically insane and some obviously carry guns :lol....

Those who profess their competancy and sanity are generally the most insane by observation.... Because the believe wholeheartedly that they are something they can, with their own limited perspectives, only define relatively on many varying disparate aspects, that they can not define ::)....

I say.... Give everyone a rocket launcher.... Then.... Even the competant people with bad aim, the old and the invalided can protect the innocent civilians from the disparate evil people....

Also I think there should be more (non metalic cos of the MRI scanner) guns in hospitals and give the security guard gunmen doctorates and on site forensic analysis training.... Recently there has been another psychotic nurse contaminating people's drips here in the UK....

Oh yeah..... Maybe also give all kiddy script programmers training in advanced viral techniques just in case one of the monkeys at typewriters accidently creates an advanced AI client that decides to wipe out the human race....

Without this common sense we have no chance to fight back!!!!

Just in case anyone has any illusions as to how sane the human race is....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbsgHbXubGU&feature=topvideos_entertainment
Posted the day before the Norway tradegy (5 days ago) and ONLY 3 million hits on this video....
(Just a random link a friend sent me)

I mean this video is sooo awesome..... I never knew a gun could do that, who would have thought!!!!

"I dont know if you noticed but one of those incendary rounds exploded 2 feet away from me.... That's how you know this is a good video"

[anunitu]

NO ONE NEEDS a hand gun that shoots that many rounds,except the militery perhaps.

A normal automatic clip holds at most 9 to 11 rounds..more than enough for a normal person to protect themselves.

[Gunner]

I mean this video is sooo awesome..... I never knew a gun could do that, who would have thought!!!!

Those look more like a mag full of tracer rounds.  Didn't know a gun could do that?  Ammo for the .50 cal I used was armor piercing incendiary... had this really pointy titanium thingy about an inch long, in front of that was some phosphorus and a small cap (I think) all wrapped in a copper jacket.  Once it hit something, it would spark up the phos and the titanium would drag it into the object and burn it to crap, and they would explode a bit.... that titanium besides going into tanks and planes, would go clear though a house!!  Now those were fun!!!  :bg

[Bill Cravener]

I just don't get it, that young fellow in that video must have more money then sense to waste all that ammo shooting at pop bottles and water. I guess what ever rattles your bones. For me that's just a boring waste of cash and bullets. Now when I was a might younger I lived in the country with a dairy farm on each side of me. The farm owners would pay me $10 bucks for every groundhog tail I delivered to them. You'd leave the dead carcass in the hog's hole so another hog wouldn't move in. Cattle farmers despise groundhogs because their dairy cattle would step in a hogs burro and break a leg. The farmer then had to put the cow down. Back then I had a Remington 257 Roberts bolt action with 9 power adjustable scope and tripod. Out the muzzle came a 100 grain bullet at speeds of 3,000 fps. It had a zero drop at 200 yards and 7 inch drop at 300 yards. Now to me, that is what I call fun, popping the heads off of groundhogs at two to three hundred yards!

[dedndave]

you should look at some of his other videos
that guy seems to have unlimited access to a firearm museum or something - and a lot of money

when i was in the army, i had a cap and ball .36 cal pistol that i used for plinking
it was even cheaper than firing a .22   :bg

[Bill Cravener]

Nice! Is that a replica Dave, I mean is that something one can buy inexpensively?

By the way, I would still spend my weekends getting rid of them hogs but at 2 to 3 hundred yards I had to give it up cause my eyes started giving out. Getting old sucks! :(

[dedndave]

well - back then, i bought it used for $75 - sold it for the same price
it is a replica of the 1851 Colt Navy revolver
if you look around, they are available for ~$150

if you have never played with black powder stuff, i will give you a heads up
1) you have to clean the gun rather frequently (basic cleaning every 20 rounds or so)
2) you hand-load each round   :P
with that particular gun, i could use 1-1/2 load (powder) for better accuracy
could not use a double load, as the cylinder wasn't deep enough

i also played with .50 cal black powder rifles - a lot of fun

[xanatose]

The Vikings believed that a person that cannot defend himself cannot really be free.

I agree with the Vikings. A population of unarmed people is always at the mercy of whoever have the weapons.

[jj2007]

A population of unarmed people is always at the mercy of whoever have the weapons.

In Europe, that is the police, and almost nobody else (oh yes, I forgot, the Swiss are armed: they have a rifle in their wardrobe - if they are caught carrying that thing in public, somebody will call the guys with the straightjackets :green)

In the U.S., every moron may have a handgun hidden under his waist coat. I visit the U.S. occasionally simply because I have to, for professional reasons, but I would never ever send my kids to study over there (or to Caracas or Nairobi, for the same reason). The statistics speak a clear language.

[hutch--]

Interestingly enough the Swiss model is an interesting one, bust into a house there and you may end up in deep sh*t (read SHOT) but don't go running around the streets carrying a weapon and you will be seen as dangerous and stopped.

This disaster in Norway puts paid to the notion that only a police force should be armed, he was dressed as a policeman and people trusted him right up to when he shot them. It would have taken only one armed guard to have stopped this tragedy but with such power concentrated in the police, there was no alternative and so many people died due to one loonie who was armed.

I personally don't like a society where many people are floating around with hand guns as it leads to abuses but a disarmed society is vulnerable to any loonie that can get a gun and over and over again, this is what happens in disarmed societies. Port Arthur in Tasmania, US schools, UK universities etc etc .... and all of them could have been stopped by one armed security person.